Thread: ARRI/Zeiss Ultra Prime 8R T2.8 Test

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  1. #1 ARRI/Zeiss Ultra Prime 8R T2.8 Test 
    Senior Member Andrew M.'s Avatar
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    ARRI/Zeiss Ultra Prime 8R T2.8 Test


    This is not a full review Evin style but rather looking closer at important aspects of the lenses in terms of Misterium 12MP resolving power and the demands that such resolution puts on the lenses.

    Since I didn’t have the 12MP still picture camera with the PL mount, I had to compromise and use the pictures done by D20 6MP movie camera, just for now.
    Also, for the resolving power test, I used test pattern that was projected on the wall ~4’ away from the lenses. The horizontal size of the picture on the wall was ~11’ wide.
    All tests were done at T2.8

    First, this is the 8mm (112 deg at 24mm horizontal sensor size) wide angle lenses that really do keep the vertical lines vertical.
    The cushion distortion at the left or right edge of the frame are not noticeable, estimated less then 3 deg. However, if you move lenses off 5 deg from the horizontal plain you get 20 deg or so tilt in vertical lines at the edges.
    See the picture below, the houses on the right are falling on its back ~20 deg, camera was pointing bit up and no shift/tilt adapter was used.
    So make sure that your lenses are pointing perfectly horizontal or you have to use shift&tilt adapter like this:
    http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/shift_ti...ilt_system.htm
    Underwater shooter, do not need to be concern.

    The focus adjustment on this lenses is extremely precise and smooth, lending itself to the high precision of adjustment required at 4K standard.

    I could go in to the details of MTF curves and resolving power of Lp/mm but for the simplicity I converted the results in to the LCD screen or projection RGB pixels.

    So the lenses do resolve more then double in terms of the required horizontal and vertical Misterium pixel count, even on the far periphery of the frame. 200Lp/mm at estimated 50% modulation.
    It is what one should expect from aspherical lenses. No spherical aberration problems influencing the focus is visible.
    I was unable to test 10% modulation (change between white and black) since the nature of the test chart used and the fact that I don't have 12MP sensor PL mount camera here.

    I have noticed that it takes just a small movement of focus ring (~1/16”) to change resolving power from 200Lp/mm to 50Lp/mm so the focus adjustment will be the most demanding factor to keep the 4K images 4K, instead of 2K. Remember the tests were done at T2.6 changing it to T8 or higher did increase resolving power but I didn’t have 400Lp/mm marks on the chart so can’t speculate what was the magnitude of increase.
    Also we have to remember that focus plain is the sphere around the lenses not a flat surface.

    Chromatic aberration is the whole different thing with this lenses.
    I still didn’t get the clear answer from ARRI/Zisse if this lenses is a full achromatic design but as compare to the focus, I noticed, one pixel width (80Lp/mm) chromatic aberration at the 80% and farther to the side of the picture. See the fragment of the left edge of the picture below, 100% crop, one to one pixel mapping.
    Chromatic aberration is almost not visible.
    Note that the picture was done by 2K camera (1920 horizontal pixels) so one pixel equals 40Lp/mm on 35 format sensor.
    (1920/24mm = 80; 80/2=40LinePairs/mm) Where ~24mm is the horizontal size of the 35 mm format
    IMHO this alone brings the 4K format down to the 2K format in terms of color resolution.
    We will repeat this test with a different unit to make sure that we are getting well aligned lenses out of the box and there is no film versus lenses, specific optimization required.
    We have to remember that film has 3 color layers, spaced ~4 micron apart each, in terms of distance from the lenses (film deep).
    We adjusted back focus though, 15 microns back and forth and there was no improvement, the resolving power actually dropped to 50Lp/mm.
    Chromatic Idiosyncrasies TBC.

    I took quick look on the 16mm and 27mm ARRI/Zeiss Master Primes and I will test these lenses as well, in light of the Misterium demands.

    This test do not addresses lens breathing test or bokeh test, since these lenses are very popular and plenty of lens specific tests were done and published.
    I am more concern with the film versus CMOS differences, in light of 5.5 micron photo-sensor format of Misterium.
    Also the influence on the resolving power and chromatic distortion, when film versus CMOS is considered.

    Blair (RED reservation #19) was so kind, expressing his interest to participate in the tests here as soon as he will get his camera. Then we will be able to test the whole system resolving power, Lenses + Misterium and even the REDCODE RAW together.
    We want to use the best possible lenses for Misterium so poor lenses quality will not lower the combined camera + lenses performance.

    The questions to be answered:
    Is there a difference in lenses optimized for film and for the CMOS sensor to the point that will influence in a major degree the resolving power at 4K format?
    What is the best type of lenses for 4K CMOS format?
    Do we need a special lenses design to be more forgiving on the focus setup?
    Feel free to add more questions here.

    Pictures of the res charts are below in post #27

    Andrew
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  2. #2  
    Fascinating tests! Yes, it's true that we don't know quite what effect the Red sensor will have with regards fringing, vignetting, etc. Probably not much but it depends on whether they're using microlenses, etc, which AFAIK has not totally been revealed.

    If you look at Canon and their migration to digital, then yes, it seems that you can design lenses that work better with digital - eg minimize the rays coming into the sensors at an angle - which seems to cause problems with digital sensors so far (especially those without microlenses, I think?).

    So far, Evin's prediction that the Nikons will be within striking distance in terms of optical quality (if not usability) seems to be accurate, although without a Red to test this on, all is preliminary.

    Your tests are incredibly valuable to us of course and thank you for doing them. I can't wait to see what and Blair find out with Red #19.

    Bruce Allen
    www.boacinema.com
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Andrew M.'s Avatar
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    From what we know here from this forum, Misterium doesn’t have micro lenses.
    However it has thin cover glass that is also serving as a low pass filter that maybe the problem for ultra wide lenses like UP8R especially at the corners of the sensor.
    Thin glass will short the back focal length for light entering it at sharp angles.
    I don’t think it will be the problem though since the focus plain of these lenses is spherical anyway so it will be unnoticeably bit more curved, that’s all.
    Above info is unconfirmed.
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  4. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    ARRI/Zeiss Ultra Prime 8R T2.8 Test


    I have noticed that it takes just a small movement of focus ring (~1/16”) to change resolving power from 200Lp/mm to 50Lp/mm so the focus adjustment will be the most demanding factor to keep the 4K images 4K, instead of 2K. Remember the tests were done at T2.6 changing it to T8 or higher did increase resolving power but I didn’t have 400Lp/mm marks on the chart so can’t speculate what was the magnitude of increase.
    Also we have to remember that focus plain is the sphere around the lenses not a flat surface.

    Andrew

    I am somewhat shocked! This is a cine lens made for the moving picture and you only need to move the focus ring 1/16th of an inch to go from 4k focus to 2k focus!

    I must be mixing something up here surely? Lets say that lens was a nikon or a canon still lens on the red camera with an appropriate mount etc. Without any modifications to the lenses or the FFs used, would the movement on the focus rings on those lenses be signiifcantly less.


    I know everyone mentions the difference of movement on the focusing rings between cine and still lenses but I thought you guys were talking about the difference between say 3/8 inch for a cine lens as against say 1/8 inch from a still lens.

    What kind of learning curve are we talking about here to master such small incremental movements. Graeme i hope for my sake your focus assist is indeed magic:sorcerer:


    Sure puts things into proper perspective though, shoot 4k to get 4K if you are a real pro. Or 4k to get 2k if you are just average. Or shoot 4k for SD. if you are not so good

    I hope closing down the iris will allow for much greater movement betwen resolution?

    Mike the beginner
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  5. #5  
    This is a cool post, it puts things into perspective. I'm sure a lot of "pros" only got 2k-level focus. Some of my favorite old black-and-white films aren't THAT sharp... and if the editor knows what they're doing, they'll choose the shot with the better acting performance over the shot with marginally better rack focus any day.

    4k is useful for other things - it makes for a very noise-free 2K image, for example. But yes, it's hard to get a perfectly-in-focus 4K image. That's why my post plan is to go straight to 2K / HD (after a "first-light" in RedCine) unless doing effects or pushing into a shot.

    What's funny will be the "indies" trying to do an all-4K finish but also trying to under-pay their focus poller. They're going to spend all that money on stupid post gear and all of that extra rendering time so that they can preserve that beautiful blurry 4K image...

    Bruce Allen
    www.boacinema.com
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  6. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Allen View Post
    This is a cool post, it puts things into perspective. I'm sure a lot of "pros" only got 2k-level focus. Some of my favorite old black-and-white films aren't THAT sharp... and if the editor knows what they're doing, they'll choose the shot with the better acting performance over the shot with marginally better rack focus any day.

    4k is useful for other things - it makes for a very noise-free 2K image, for example. But yes, it's hard to get a perfectly-in-focus 4K image. That's why my post plan is to go straight to 2K / HD (after a "first-light" in RedCine) unless doing effects or pushing into a shot.

    What's funny will be the "indies" trying to do an all-4K finish but also trying to under-pay their focus poller. They're going to spend all that money on stupid post gear and all of that extra rendering time so that they can preserve that beautiful blurry 4K image...

    Bruce Allen
    www.boacinema.com

    Jim Jannard did say a while ago "It will seperate the men from the boys" but i had no idea it would split the boys from the babies as well

    Edit Just read you next post Andrew. You gotta love refraction ha ha.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Andrew M.'s Avatar
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    I was testing with lenses wide open.
    These lenses are optimized for wide open anyway.
    1/16” of the move on the ring is not a problem with cine type of lenses since they are extremely well machined. No play at all. Normally you do not pull the focus on these lenses just by grabbing it by hand, and you can install high gear ratio if you want.
    Don’t expect problems here. I do expect that focus plain will be very shallow, what some guys love the most. But shallow and ultra shallow is a bit of challenge for those that like it. Once you stop it up to 8T or so the DOF is not a problem, but then diffraction is kicking in.
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  8. #8  
    Red Savant Steve Gibby's Avatar
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    Shallow DOF gets a lot of discussion, but the fact is that virtually every production requires a continual assortment of various DOF, from real shallow to isolate viewer's attention to certain subjects/items in a frame, on up to medium to extremely deep DOF for establishing shots. 35mm shooting enables inherently shallow DOF, but in my mind one of the true challenges for someone stepping up to shooting 35mm is to learn how to use and control camera, lighting, and lens features to allow them to achieve the necessary DOF for each shot, whether it be shallow, medium, or deep. Since 35mm quite easily and naturally displays shallow DOF, it is quite often a bigger challenge in 35mm to get enough light into a lens to stop it down to achieve medium to deep DOF.

    Critical focus is definitely necessary in shooting 35mm shallow DOF shots, but throughout the production of a feature, commercial, or television program, or any type of production, there will be a vast number of scenes/shots that require you to also know how to effectively and quickly achieve medium to deep DOF. Narrative cinema uses a significant amount of shallow DOF, but in narrative cinema production you’ll also see lots of medium DOF and deep DOF (establishing shots, etc.).

    The bottom line is that one of the hallmarks of professional cinematographers, videographers, and photographers is their ability to know their camera systems, lenses, and filters well enough to be able to quickly achieve the DOF required by any shot or scene, whether that be shallow, medium, or deep.

    Mike: the kind of nature and adventure travel productions you’ve described you are interested in producing/shooting are done in natural light, and usually lots of it. 35mm lenses that are optimized for wide open shooting are obviously not your best choice for that type of shooting. Lenses that are optimized for mid-range T or F stops are best for that because most of your shooting will be between f5.6 and f11 in that type of production. At those iris levels DOF is commensurately medium to deep, thus critical focus is simply nowhere near as “critical”. You’ll be working in that type of production without a focus puller – you’ll be racking focus. I think you should wait until NAB (6 days away) to get the full info on the combination of how RED One’s focus assist works with the high-resolution EVF and LCD, before jumping to conclusions on a concept that only longtime expert cinematographers with focus pullers will be able to focus 35mm lenses on RED One.

    RED One is designed for a broad range of cine-style and EFP style production, only a portion of which require hyper-shallow DOF. Narrative cinema is only one of those genres of production, and even narrative cinema requires achieving significant amounts of medium and deep DOF.

    NAB is only 6 days away – let’s reserve judgment on the 35mm focus ability of RED One until all the info is in. Even then, for the factors I’ve outlined above, IMO there’s no reason for the vast majority shooters to panic about achieving shallow DOF. It gets a lot of press, but it is only one of the parameters that working pros have to achieve on a regular basis.

    Hope this helps…
    Golden Gate 3D
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Stephen Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibby View Post
    xtremely deep DOF for establishing shots.
    Hi,

    I think you will find it rather difficult to get a narrow DOF on an establishing shot, whatever apeture you use.

    Stephen
    Epic M owner
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  10. #10  
    Red Savant Steve Gibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Williams View Post
    Hi,

    I think you will find it rather difficult to get a narrow DOF on an establishing shot, whatever apeture you use.

    Stephen
    I couldn't agree more...hence the statement I made on that. Mike is a beginning shooter. The obvious properties of establishing shot DOF I described weren't stated for experienced people like me and you.

    Cheers...
    Golden Gate 3D
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