Thread: Who owns the work? Copyright in 2016

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  1. #1 Who owns the work? Copyright in 2016 
    Moderator David Battistella's Avatar
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    Hey guys, There is an interesting discussion brewing between Jake Blackstone and Bjorn Benckert and others sort of over who owns the work?

    Who owns the files, if you are a colorist, Motion graphics artist, editor, musician, cinematographer, etc, anyway you get the point.

    I thought I would move some of that exchange from another thread here into this new thread where the discussion can continue.

    I've moved it all over here into it's own topic.


    Desktop printing changed everything. I still use a real printer (person) for critical stuff and there is a relationship there. I still use dp's, there a relationship there. I edit my own stuff, and I use colorists, there's a relationship there. I like to work with a sound mixer, there's a relationship there. There is some advantage to having dedicated people and doing the job once.

    Some of it all depends on workflows, jobs, budgets, etc, but generally I like to maintain relationships with other creative people. Painters, musicians, photographers and such.

    I don't blame what happens in the marketplace on cheap available tools.

    A lager problem is also also the number of graduates being churned out of tech schools, film schools, photography schools, animation programs and the like. It's turned the marketplace into a producers dream, then you have outsourcing of vfx to third world economies.

    You cant blame this stuff on inexpensive software when there are so many forces at play.


    David
    Last edited by David Battistella; 12-23-2015 at 08:56 AM.
    "Colors are the wounds of light."
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  2. #2 Who owns the work? Copyright in 2016 
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    ...and color grading has not become a minimum-wage job

    People forget that it's all about the craft. The creative skills IS what people pay for, not the technology. That's why people still make money, even if some tech is free. And it will continue so forever until computers make art.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member shashbugu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    ...and color grading has not become a minimum-wage job

    People forget that it's all about the craft. The creative skills IS what people pay for, not the technology. That's why people still make money, even if some tech is free. And it will continue so forever until computers make art.
    Truer words have never been spoken. Because resolve is free clients are actually now able to discern quality grading from crappy video oil painting. As a producer/ director I consider myself the client, and the value of color grading has never been more important so to speak.
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member jake blackstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shashbugu View Post
    Truer words have never been spoken. Because resolve is free clients are actually now able to discern quality grading from crappy video oil painting. As a producer/ director I consider myself the client, and the value of color grading has never been more important so to speak.
    I couldn't disagree more. I love my clients and, I hope, they appreciate what I bring to the table too. But, these days first thing many clients do is whip out their free Resolve on a MacBook and show what they want to see on the screen. Those grades are usually very sad looking, but those clients think it's a hoot to "mess around with colors in Resolve" on their computer to be able to show a colorist how it's done. Once the session is over, they demand you hand over the Resolve project file, so they can continue to tweak images themselves. After all these years of "it's about the craft. The creative skills IS what people pay for, not the technology, etc", many colorists now start seeing the writing on a wall. It's a fun occupation for someone, who lives in parent's garage and doesn't need to pay the rent, but for someone who may want some day to start a family? Not so much...
    And that is why these kind of decisions by some fed up colorists will be more a norm, than an exception:
    http://tomparish.com/2015/11/a-time-for-change/
    Jake Blackstone
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member jake blackstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    ...and color grading has not become a minimum-wage job
    You must be living in a parallel universe, because I get offered color grading jobs below minimum wage ALL the time. Needless to say, no one forces me to take those gigs, but they always find someone who does:)
    Jake Blackstone
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member shashbugu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. I love my clients and, I hope, they appreciate what I bring to the table too. But, these days first thing many clients do is whip out their free Resolve on a MacBook and show what they want to see on the screen. Those grades are usually very sad looking, but those clients think it's a hoot to "mess around with colors in Resolve" on their computer to be able to show a colorist how it's done. Once the session is over, they demand you hand over the Resolve project file, so they can continue to tweak images themselves. After all these years of "it's about the craft. The creative skills IS what people pay for, not the technology, etc", many colorists now start seeing the writing on a wall. It's a fun occupation for someone, who lives in parent's garage and doesn't need to pay the rent, but for someone who may want some day to start a family? Not so much...
    And that is why these kind of decisions by some fed up colorists will be more a norm, than an exception:
    http://tomparish.com/2015/11/a-time-for-change/
    Very interesting. That really saddens me. It must be heart wrenching to give them the project file knowing they are off to destroy your work.
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  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    It's a fun occupation for someone, who lives in parent's garage and doesn't need to pay the rent, but for someone who may want some day to start a family? Not so much...
    And that is why these kind of decisions by some fed up colorists will be more a norm, than an exception:
    http://tomparish.com/2015/11/a-time-for-change/

    Jake, this guy turned 60. An age many think of cutting back, an age where your peers think of that too, where business slows down around you naturally, where the youngster are looking for collaborators in their age, where other things in life become more important, e.g. keeping health, family you name it.

    ---

    You are right, of course, the job colourist is turing into something different theses day. Technology advancements, race to the bottom, "indie" filmmaking are not helping to keep this job a reliable source for feeding a family. IMHO, we are seeing in many other parts of our industry similar developments. For many editors today their job leaves them in a precarious situation, same counts for many that call them selfs DP. You need to have secure roots in the advertising world, the broadcast world or the medium/high budget feature world to gain a reliable income in a "classic" film job.

    If you are not part of such a community, if you are freelancer that drifts between these worlds, who has a stake in low budget filmmaking, corporate or music videos, medium budget TVCs, its pretty clever these days to wear more than just one head. IMHO, in this market the postproduction will more and more start and ends on one machine. No division of work anymore, editing, colour and VFX, plus sound design are done by one person, perhaps a second one for sound. Seen this more and more happening. And it is inevitable. NLEs of today can do colour not too bad, or in Resolve's case become a NLE. Flame is now available on OS X and includes a complete NLE with surprising sound capabilities, not to mention colour work plus world-class VFX pipeline. This all directs to a swiss army knife of post guy. Good times for those who eagerly learn.

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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. I love my clients and, I hope, they appreciate what I bring to the table too. But, these days first thing many clients do is whip out their free Resolve on a MacBook and show what they want to see on the screen. Those grades are usually very sad looking, but those clients think it's a hoot to "mess around with colors in Resolve" on their computer to be able to show a colorist how it's done. Once the session is over, they demand you hand over the Resolve project file, so they can continue to tweak images themselves. After all these years of "it's about the craft. The creative skills IS what people pay for, not the technology, etc", many colorists now start seeing the writing on a wall. It's a fun occupation for someone, who lives in parent's garage and doesn't need to pay the rent, but for someone who may want some day to start a family? Not so much...
    And that is why these kind of decisions by some fed up colorists will be more a norm, than an exception:
    http://tomparish.com/2015/11/a-time-for-change/
    I'm not sure what type of clients you work with, but for commercials, feature films and TV I've never encountered amateurs taking over the color grading. One post production facility I worked for makes $700 an hour for grading and the clients get perfect result for it. I know there are clients out there who think they can do it all by themselves, but those are clients who most of the time don't have enough money for post production anyway. All the full paid jobs I've done have never looked like your example.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member MichaelP's Avatar
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    Creative editorial has already gone through this and still is to some extent. Music went through it first.

    Michael
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    I'm not sure what type of clients you work with, but for commercials, feature films and TV I've never encountered amateurs taking over the color grading. One post production facility I worked for makes $700 an hour for grading and the clients get perfect result for it. I know there are clients out there who think they can do it all by themselves, but those are clients who most of the time don't have enough money for post production anyway. All the full paid jobs I've done have never looked like your example.
    I always, up front demand the resolve project file for my projects and I find colourist that does not want to provide such as hard to work with. I simply do not book them. If I produce something I find the resolve file just as relevant to have on my project drive as the offline project file, the XLM´s , the graphics and so on. But I do fully understand that the colourist creative integrity possibly gets more than a little bit squeezed in that process, but then thats something they will have to charge me for. The guys I tend to work with are confident enough to understand that I hire them for their eye and ideas. When doing VFX and CG stuff the best result is achieved if the composite and 3D can be done both "underneath the grade" or above depending on whats happening. In other words we need to be able to have what ever happened in resolve as an Adjustment layer. Just getting a DPX sequence with graded material just dont cut it. At least not in my house.
    Björn Benckert
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