Thread: WANTED: Current Workflow & problem solving solutions for Adobe workflow

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13
  1. #1 WANTED: Current Workflow & problem solving solutions for Adobe workflow 
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    planetearth
    Posts
    857
    We have contacted both Red and Adobe for up to date workflow advice and no one seems to have it. Each tells us to contact the other. I was a beta tester for Adobe when Red first came out, but not much new problem solving/workflow info has developed over the last year or so. Now I desperately need solutions and no one seems forthcoming with answers.

    Here is the thing (or part of it) - we are cutting a feature film. It has been shot on Dragon 6k and some Scarlet 4k. We have cut the entire picture with Raw R3d in premiere. We have over 200 vfx shots, so we wanted to stay in raw, transfer to After effects, do our comp (or what ever the fx is), bring back into premiere as a (perhaps 4444) and export a master from there. In our fx shots we need to comp in an actor (with another actor) and keep both characters in the same colour universe. However, as I've found now and in the past, there is a colour or gamma shift when going into/back to AE/premiere. In the past, I've brought the entire project to after effects in the end, graded and export from there.

    I know, many will say, why don't you grade in this or that program, but all the FX are done in AE, so if I can keep it in premiere / AE universe, this would be good and very helpful in the end.

    So, one of many questions - what codec are people working in to avoid shift of any sort. also, what colour space? Any change in colour/gamma also effects our keys that we've already devoted tons of time to. Any change can potentially be changing a beautiful key to suddenly having all kinds of noise. We want to be consistent.

    Another question, how are people getting consistent outputs without crashing or other weird things from happening. It took a week just to export an OMF that didn't crash the system. In addition, timelines that have been outputted sometimes are completely missing shots (black space). I look back at the timeline and see the shot is there, premiere just decided not to included it. If it can't even handle basic output, what is potentially missing in the OMF, how can it be dependable to master out, etc.

    I've output entire shows this way with a great end product, but it was extremely frustrating. And now - it's extremely frustrating for another reason, but Adobe has come a long way. However, all of it is useless if I can't output a solid product. Any tidbits of info is appreciated or leads on who to talk to. Caveat though - final export in the past was from After Effects, not premiere. Thinking of exporting all FX shots in prores to premiere, temp replacing r3d fx shot so I can make sure all works in the edit, then export entire project back to to AE, replace prores FX shots once again with original r3d comps, then export show from there. Lots' of extra work, but better then spending weeks dealing with crashes, errors, and gamma shifts.

    We have a million more questions, but they all pertain to workflow and getting this picture out so we can meet our deadlines.

    Wisdom is greatly appreciated.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Matthew Quinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Buffalo, N.Y
    Posts
    2,182
    I would suggest exporting and XML and compile in resolve
    WEAPON HELIUM 8K
    SCARLET-W
    LOCAL 600
    BUFFALO, N.Y
    IMDB

    www.coderedpicturecompany.com


    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Senior Member Mike Garrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,173
    Personally I would never cut a feature in premier because of the issues you are now encountering , let alone a raw one without transcoding.

    Anyway a suggestion , IMO your project is too large hence hang times and general performance weirdness. Have you tried reducing the project into smaller projects....say into reels . That would mean say 6 reels into 6 different projects.......not ideal but should reduce the data load considerably with a big upgrade in reliability.

    It seems in trying to stay within the "Adobe" universe you are creating workflow issues for the project . These problems will only magnify as the project nears completion and peak data. So at the most critical time and need for reliability .......you are balancing on a pin head getting smaller by the day. Dynamic link def. has issues with large projects .......a week to create an OMF , wtf! . Haven't even got into the bogieman nightmare of project corruption which can happen due to the size of the project.

    As Mathew suggested moving the project over to Resolve makes a lot of sense. IMO . You need to start looking at other options to be safe.

    PS. Yes I know Fincher cut "Gone Girl " but I'm sure he had full Adobe engineer tech. support to manage the project on a daily basis. .....do you ?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    12,013
    Give DPX sequences a try from AE. You are likely experiencing something rather Quicktime related.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    7,148
    http://www.provideocoalition.com/beh...-of-gone-girl/

    http://nofilmschool.com/2014/10/how-...nely-efficient

    http://www.provideocoalition.com/gon...after-effects/

    But I have to agree with Mike, having Adobe over your shoulder certainly is a huge advantage that most can't afford to have, so you have to take some of this with a grain of salt. Unless you are as up to speed as the people involved in putting together that workflow, you may run into challenges. Same can be said of a lot of systems. FCP X and Avid have their "gotchas" too.But, I will say that Avid in particular is built pretty well for long form. Add in the resolution independence now and that checks off another box in its favor.

    Hopefully you're able to get through this project and figure out a solid workflow for future ones. One of my heroes, Walter Murch is using Premiere and seems to enjoy it, but he will also tell you that there are a few things driving him crazy that he is working with Adobe to solve. So, again having their ear helps.
    Steve Sherrick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Senior Member jake blackstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,977
    There are so many issues with OP post I, frankly, have no idea where to start. But the biggest thing, that made me cringe is the insistence on editing and working with RAW and staying in Adobe universe all the way to the end. Either one can be problematic, taken together-it's a sure fire recipe for disaster. At some point you will need to leave Adobe workflow, at least for color grading, sorry Speedgrade...
    My suggestion with so much VFX work, ditch RAW as soon as you can. Make sure you pre-grade all you VFX shots, before you hand them over to someone else, regardless of software used. Having everyone on the project on the same page with RAW settings, LUTs etc is not that simple. Trying to grade something with VFX already applied is pretty difficult, unless masks are passed along, but even then,with loss of metadata, simple things, like color temperature is not so simple any more. That is why shots needs to be pre-graded.
    As far as editing with RAW, seriously there is no need to overcomplicate things. Use proxies, your computer with thank you, things all of a sudden will get very fast and you will get zero crashes. When finished, export XML and let other deal with RAW conform.
    Do yourself a favor and hire a knowledgable post supervisor. Doing a feature with 200 VFX shots without having proven workflow is not a great idea.
    Barring any major workflow decisions, do stick with DPX or EXR for your VFX workflow. That is an avenue used by most professionals.
    Looking forward to the future, Baselight Editions for PPro can't come fast enough. Once that happens, in my opinion, Adobe suite will immediately become a force to be reckoned with.
    Jake Blackstone
    Colorist
    Los Angeles
    MOD Color Web Site
    Demo Reel
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    Senior Member M.Halsell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New York-NY
    Posts
    1,175
    Quote Originally Posted by HD Hildebrand View Post
    We have contacted both Red and Adobe for up to date workflow advice and no one seems to have it. Each tells us to contact the other. I was a beta tester for Adobe when Red first came out, but not much new problem solving/workflow info has developed over the last year or so. Now I desperately need solutions and no one seems forthcoming with answers.

    Here is the thing (or part of it) - we are cutting a feature film. It has been shot on Dragon 6k and some Scarlet 4k. We have cut the entire picture with Raw R3d in premiere. We have over 200 vfx shots, so we wanted to stay in raw, transfer to After effects, do our comp (or what ever the fx is), bring back into premiere as a (perhaps 4444) and export a master from there. In our fx shots we need to comp in an actor (with another actor) and keep both characters in the same colour universe. However, as I've found now and in the past, there is a colour or gamma shift when going into/back to AE/premiere. In the past, I've brought the entire project to after effects in the end, graded and export from there.

    I know, many will say, why don't you grade in this or that program, but all the FX are done in AE, so if I can keep it in premiere / AE universe, this would be good and very helpful in the end.

    So, one of many questions - what codec are people working in to avoid shift of any sort. also, what colour space? Any change in colour/gamma also effects our keys that we've already devoted tons of time to. Any change can potentially be changing a beautiful key to suddenly having all kinds of noise. We want to be consistent.


    Wisdom is greatly appreciated.
    Currently, how are you getting the AfterEffects VFX shots back to Premiere? Is the color shift on the way back from AE back to the Premiere timeline or both? Sounds like you and your team are wearing multiple hats, and probably too late to construct another workflow.

    Without all the details, broadly it seems that as part of the Premiere/AE roundtrip, the color will have to be managed manually for the VFX shots, basically creating a curve within the original color space to mimic the RMD values.

    If your timeline is fat, consider a HD or 2K and link proxies back to the R3D. The all RAW workflow is doable for short form work, limited to timeline edits. But particularly with VFX workflow, the RAW pipeline at some point will be compromised.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    planetearth
    Posts
    857
    Thank you all. Some of the best Reduser contributors on this thread. I appreciate it. Yes, we are looking at all options and will run more tests. Currently have the picture in 3 timelines. Finally got the OMFs out. Will test some of the options listed. Looking at pre-grade options, as well as DPX.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9 exr 
    yea, watch out for low quality dpx's. stuff that's linear that should be log(and visa versa), and render it 16bit or you'll get a lossy funk going on.(can you say 8 bit dpx!) since they're the same size, I recommend EXR full 32bpc float for all RED conforms. It's a faster, better standard created by ILM just for this.

    don't forget color management as well. Redlog gamma curve is highest quality and is precisely cineon spec.

    color project working space should be Rec 2020 and preview Rec. 709 or P3(depending on your monitor quality.) You might need to create luts with DisplayCAL
    (free lut creator) since premiere doesn't support color management. Also dynamic link forces everything into rec. 709 as well as also mercury transmit. I have reported this as a bug. :)

    or if you're really desperate, light illusions has a lut creator that can be created from the "oops" difference of two outputs. Really amazing stuff.
    remember, 16 luts are for previews, 64 cube are for renders.(high quality, but slow)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    When you have finished cutting, export an XML and import the entire timeline into Resolve.

    Set the project to RedLogFilm and 320 ISO

    Export 10bit DPXs of all the VFX shots. Or ProRes4444 if you want lower file sizes. Import those into AE. Convert from Log to Linear using a lut. Work in linear in After Effects but with a Rec709 look up table. Remove the Rec707 lut when you're done. Apply a linear to cineon log one export. OR import into Resolve as linear and apply the linear to log lut there.

    Do your grading in Resolve, because doing grading in After Effects is... just not the right thing to do. Even if your VFX are in AE, the tools in Resolve are so much better, playback is so much faster, transcoding is so much faster. You are actually wasting shed loads of time with your workflow I'm afraid. :/
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts