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  1. #101  
    I don't know, man, I've been there since Red One #182—and I was only that far down the list because it took an extra day after the announcement to get enough money cleared on my then-miniscule credit card. I never expected upgrades to be free, or for the camera to always remain inside the same body. I for one am incredibly glad the bodies have slowly evolved. The DSMC2 body is a work of art, nice and light, modular with 3rd-party tools, easy to mount stuff to and incredibly capable. It's a far cry from what the Red One would be even if it had new sensors and boards inside.

    These are working cameras. They should be making money, and it costs money for Red to do what they do. It's fair for us to exchange some of the value the cameras make for us to Red for the work that they do. And we're talking, reasonably, a small fraction per upgrade of what every person here who works professionally makes in a year. So while I get it if you mis-read the signs, but not all of us thought the way you think. So to claim a deception or whatever isn't really fair.

    Like... c'mon. Raven. It's $6K and far better than the Red One ever was. And that's in under a decade from Red even being a thing.
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  2. #102  
    Senior Member Marc Thorpe's Avatar
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    Hey Trevor, I fully understand and agree with your points. I came into the R1 world from 3CCD, maybe that was my mistake, thinking it the be all, end all solution. My then fiance, now wife, held my hand as I allocated a sizeable chunk of our savings to that new chapter in my imaging career. It is what it was.

    Never once have I suggested intentional deception. I believe it to have been a clear cut case of boardroom decisions taking precedence over prior marketing spin, I simply took the grammatical intention as gospel. It was probably the most expensive "My bad" in my personal history but hey, we live and learn. I harbour no ill will, life is way too short for that.
    Last edited by Marc Thorpe; 08-29-2016 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Couldn't spell harbour...!
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  3. #103  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsie N View Post
    I actually had a different thought when I read that... thinking that things change so fast these days that the current form factor will be--dare I say it--obsolete by twenty-twenty.

    We come from different disciplines so that explains our different reaction to the same statement. It's just that I'm thinking the Light field/multi-lens cameras are close. Exponential advancement does not favor a 5 year form factor, IMO.
    Well taking (for example) the form factor of the Hasselblad... "Victor" was tasked by the Swedish government to make kind of knock offs of captured German Ariel survey cameras during WWII. That layout of those cameras then influenced the first consumer Hasselblad's of the 1950s. So that layout and form factor has persisted for over 50 years and through the digital age. Similarly I don't really expect the DSMC concept to change that radically over the next ten or 15 years but the cameras that may come out in 2020 + may be sleeker variants or wider in certain dimensions (to accommodate different sensors) or have minor alterations to allow for different approaches to cooling etc. but the basic layout I would say will probably stay the same as they pretty much "Nailed it" IMO.

    "Exponential advancement" (as you say @Elsie N) doesn't really screw with good design and form factor too much unless you have a radical change in the type of technology that you are using. So Automobiles are still basically four wheels, a box with windows and a steering wheel at the front (that's been the case for nearly a 100 years). In the case of aircraft the form factor and design have changed necessarily due to different power plants such as the jet engine. I don't equate Light field/multi lens cameras as the "Jet Engine" that will change Cinematography. These are not technologies that will alter the path of digital cinematics. RED on the other hand has had a significant "Hand" in that. So as far as "Form factor" goes I don't really imagine that RED would abandon their basic and core design philosophy (so I'm not worried as I am pretty sure we can accommodate whatever comes in the future from RED). But I would be happy to revisit this topic eight years from now to see where we all are :-)

    Cheers,

    Eric
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  4. #104  
    Senior Member Marc Thorpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    But I would be happy to revisit this topic eight years from now to see where we all are :-)
    Probably on some deserted island somewhere shooting 16K Timelapse sequences with the GoPro Hero12.
    S E A W I L D E A R T H

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  5. #105  
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    Jarred: If you promise to keep making new better cameras, I promise to HAPPILY keep paying you for the upgrades and value they bring to my images. Maybe im misunderstanding some others gripe about not being Obsolecense Obsolete enough. But, no other camera company lets you trade in an old model for a significant credit on the new model, plus accessories credit right?!. Well I guess consider me content. Matter of fact, very fucking content, Helium here I come.

    So take my money and others again and again to keep Red pushing the envelope. Please.
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  6. #106  
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    I've never once felt misled by the mantra of Obsolence Obsolete. That mantra simply means that Red is not content to rest on its laurels and that stuff will be so far out ahead that it will still be relevant where others might not have so much relevance. 4K footage from 2007 was like... What... 8 or 9 years ahead of the distribution curve for 4K material.

    It's sometimes hard to justify staying in the cycle - but if you hustle, and you have the need for the latest tools, they will pay for themselves.

    This ad is pretty comical though - see the tag line at the bottom...

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  7. #107  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brody_B View Post
    Jarred: If you promise to keep making new better cameras, I promise to HAPPILY keep paying you for the upgrades and value they bring to my images. Maybe im misunderstanding some others gripe about not being Obsolecense Obsolete enough. But, no other camera company lets you trade in an old model for a significant credit on the new model, plus accessories credit right?!. Well I guess consider me content. Matter of fact, very fucking content, Helium here I come.

    So take my money and others again and again to keep Red pushing the envelope. Please.
    what Brody said. Some people will just never be happy.
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  8. #108  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    Well taking (for example) the form factor of the Hasselblad... "Victor" was tasked by the Swedish government to make kind of knock offs of captured German Ariel survey cameras during WWII. That layout of those cameras then influenced the first consumer Hasselblad's of the 1950s. So that layout and form factor has persisted for over 50 years and through the digital age. Similarly I don't really expect the DSMC concept to change that radically over the next ten or 15 years but the cameras that may come out in 2020 + may be sleeker variants or wider in certain dimensions (to accommodate different sensors) or have minor alterations to allow for different approaches to cooling etc. but the basic layout I would say will probably stay the same as they pretty much "Nailed it" IMO.

    "Exponential advancement" (as you say @Elsie N) doesn't really screw with good design and form factor too much unless you have a radical change in the type of technology that you are using. So Automobiles are still basically four wheels, a box with windows and a steering wheel at the front (that's been the case for nearly a 100 years). In the case of aircraft the form factor and design have changed necessarily due to different power plants such as the jet engine. I don't equate Light field/multi lens cameras as the "Jet Engine" that will change Cinematography. These are not technologies that will alter the path of digital cinematics. RED on the other hand has had a significant "Hand" in that. So as far as "Form factor" goes I don't really imagine that RED would abandon their basic and core design philosophy (so I'm not worried as I am pretty sure we can accommodate whatever comes in the future from RED). But I would be happy to revisit this topic eight years from now to see where we all are :-)

    Cheers,

    Eric
    What's a Hasselblad? '-)

    Well, of course I've heard of those old cameras, but they can't even do RAVEN 4k in motion mode. Just because some dying brand nostalgic camera that was once relevant stayed with the format doesn't argue well for RED doing the same.

    What is it they say? Change or die?

    Oh, and automobiles are self-driving now. No steering wheel or other means for human intervention (it's happening now) is a big change in form factor.
    Last edited by Elsie N; 08-30-2016 at 05:08 AM.
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  9. #109  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsie N View Post
    What's a Hasselblad? '-)

    Well, of course I've heard of those old cameras, but they can't even do RAVEN 4k in motion mode. Just because some dying brand nostalgic camera that was once relevant stayed with the format doesn't argue well for RED doing the same.

    What is it they say? Change or die?

    Oh, and automobiles are self-driving now. No steering wheel or other human intervention is a big change in form factor.
    Well we in the real world actually have to design and build stuff... So RED does not have a medium format camera that shoots 80 MP per frame nor does it have a sensor that approaches 54 mm x 45 mm for sensor size. I will bet you a $10,000.00 that 98% of vehicles classed as an "Automobile" that are street legal will still have a steering wheel in the front 20 years from now. Yes there are "Wondrous" and interesting technological improvements and achievements and really interesting solutions to problems... BUT these more exotic solutions in a lot of cases DON"T become main stream products especially in the "Film Industry". I think reading through a lot of the threads in REDUSER that you get an impression that some folks are very nave about technological solutions VS. what actually makes a good product. DESIGN has a lot to do with that. That's one of the things I like about RED and Jim's influence and approach to design as its VERY practical and he understands the markets he wants to create. He's not Willy Wonker.

    8 Years... My friend.
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  10. #110  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    Well we in the real world actually have to design and build stuff... So RED does not have a medium format camera that shoots 80 MP per frame nor does it have a sensor that approaches 54 mm x 45 mm for sensor size. I will bet you a $10,000.00 that 98% of vehicles classed as an "Automobile" that are street legal will still have a steering wheel in the front 20 years from now. Yes there are "Wondrous" and interesting technological improvements and achievements and really interesting solutions to problems... BUT these more exotic solutions in a lot of cases DON"T become main stream products especially in the "Film Industry". I think reading through a lot of the threads in REDUSER that you get an impression that some folks are very nave about technological solutions VS. what actually makes a good product. DESIGN has a lot to do with that. That's one of the things I like about RED and Jim's influence and approach to design as its VERY practical and he understands the markets he wants to create. He's not Willy Wonker.

    8 Years... My friend.
    I don't know Eric.

    When the head of Ford Motor Company says in an interview that Ford is gearing up for a future when people don't buy cars but buy rides instead, that tells me that big changes are coming in the automobile "form factor." It'll be an urban thing so yes, there will still be self-driving cars with steering wheels and enough electronics in the old four-wheel box design to go to Mars and back, just as current automobiles have the computing power to do a hundred Apollo missions... all at the same time.

    And your pronounced assessment of what the "Film Industry" will look like in the future... well, just revisit what people thought about film vs digital just a decade or so ago... and that was way, way back in the exponential explosion we are now in. Sort of like the beginning of the big bang. '-)

    And as to your point that people on REDuser are naive about how cameras are made, they are not naive about how cameras are used.

    Your kudos to RED for what they have accomplished are well placed, but if they think they've arrived, then they better enjoy that feeling while they can... ____ ____ ____ (fill in the blanks with whatever you think will happen in the future which will turn out to either partially or totally wrong. '-)

    As for an 80 MP Stills-only (for all practical purposes) camera? That's niche to put it as politely as I can.
    Last edited by Elsie N; 08-30-2016 at 06:05 AM.
    One camera is a shoot...but four (or more'-) Hydrogens is a prohhhh-duction... Elsie the Wraith
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