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  1. #911  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antony Newman View Post
    Eric,

    Well thought out :-)

    A 'history' recorder, with the simplicity of a polarioid. :-)

    AJ
    Maybe, AND spatially referenced too :-) ... So time, space, travel... etc.

    The key thing in such an approach is create a base "Condition report" of the planet, its habitats and ecosystems, and then as time goes by, decade on decade with such recordings you start to build up a picture for the rate of change/rate of destruction to these environments and species (both the natural environment as well as the human "effect" on the planet and the natural world...) This is not something that can be achieved only by ariel and satellite imagery. Terrestrial / human ground based(and drone based) imagery of the kind that could be generated by such a "camera" could be very excellent indeed. That way it is theoretically possible to prioritize which environments are at high risk. A sort of environmental and species based triage. Such data is really difficult to amass and collect by conventional or current means so a veritable army of "Recorders" willing to go to very remote or even hostile non-obvious locations would be very valuable indeed. But such data can only be made valuable or useful if it hangs together on a very large and accessible spatially and temporally referenced 3d data base/interface... (i.e. Google Earth Jannard style) And so on. Seems like the camera in the cited patent could be a good tool for the job (as well as integrating other more conventional RED tech). But in any case technologically there would be some great "Spin offs" that would certainly benefit the Cinematic and data intensive visual community as well as the need for retroactive archiving of older materials on new archive formats. (Perhaps)?


    But if that's not what's being done it should probably be done anyway, and Jannard is not someone to leave a big interesting "Hole" in the market place or a really cool and worthwhile project just sitting there, especially for the types of themes and causes he seems enthusiastic about. I have never met the man but I think people forget that (as it seems to me) that his primary passion and drive is what the photographic image can do (in service of "Mankind" if you will). Just read his tag line at the bottom of his posts. Some folks seems to look at things as whatever may be next is a subset of RED or Cinemagraphic craft/relevant tech, but my "Vibe" is that whatever Jannard may be doing next is essentially a very big and ambitious super set of all that. you know... BIGGER :-) . There also might be a way to upload data from very remote locations too? I wonder? That seems to be something that is pre-occupying various socially conscious billionaires these days as well ;-). All to the good!
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  2. #912  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    @Randal Nice find!
    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...-field-imaging! ;)
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  3. #913  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip Orlandic View Post
    I have to admit I was rather dismissive of the idea of a "Light field" camera coming from Jim Jannard. Basically professional film makers and cinematographers are not going to switch to light field cameras on mass over night. That will never happen. BUT a new application area i.e. new project seems like a good bet. If you watch "Racing Extinction" its really clear early on in the movie/documentary that there are many instances where you have ONLY one opportunity to get the shot... So might as well have a device that can produce a very rich and comprehensive record of a given subject. I.e. you are in the jungles of Belize somewhere (benignly) stalking the near last of a particular species and it comes into "frame" you have ONE chance to get the shot or sequence. [Not like the film business where you can still re-shoot a lot of stuff (if stuff really fouls up), even on location or before the sets are axed and smashed up on the back lot]. Typically a lot of naturalists, archaeologists, ecologists, geologist, whatever-ists are not necessarily quick on the draw nor are they specialist and very experienced photographers (some ARE... but not all). So I think the "Dense Field Jannard Camera" could represent a really good solution to that problem. I think the device is inspired by the need to have very comprehensive or near definitive record of something that requires a low level of expertise to generate very decent and acceptible results. I am interested in the kinematic aspect that not only can you record (let's say) an animal as a light field "still" but you also you get to see how it moves or get a sense of its general dynamic character and aspect rendered in various ways. [As an aside I think (oddly) or ironically the camera has a lot of applications for a new type of portraiture as well... Might be very popular].

    Overall its 25% the device and 75% the overall scheme (I think/ perhaps?). i.e. a big VR database of EARTH that supports all possible data types be they stills, dynamic, light field, newer 3d formats ;-), and crucially with a multi temporal slider (in the interface)... I.e. you can step through time... from hours to decades and one day centuries. The photographic possibilities are really endless as especially with light as that is always going to be different from minute to minute and time of year. I think also with a comprehensive "Jannard" EARTH database and interface you can see what needs to be recorded. So the most obvious sites, locations and habitats will be recorded first (so there will be massive redundancy apart from the "BEST" records perhaps (I can see a lot of on-line competition there)) but it will also make clear areas on Earth that have virtually no records at all. At the back of my mind I'm wondering what the "Rewards" are for going to more distant and inaccessible locations would be?

    In truth, even just focusing on the bio-diversity theme, a substantial number of species will go extinct even before a human being even has the chance to take the first picture/record of such an organism; to record its existence before it vanishes for ever. The race is on.


    I suspect that Jim Jannard in his various dealings and travels over recent years has come into contact with a lot of "Earth Minded " folks not just conservationists and environmentalist but the likes of JPL and NASA. That really changes your perspective on things... (it did for me 20 years ago), and really brings to light the power and utility of the (photographic) image once you provide the correct framework and context for all imagery. [I think this is what Jim may be aiming for... but maybe I am 100% wrong/ way off base LOL]. Never the less I suspect there are a lot of "Spin off" benefits that as Jannard says will (paraphrase). "Change the way we do things" for more conventional applications... And "Said project" will need a veritable army of shooter/recorders... When Jim says (paraphrase) 'I'm counting on you [All].

    If such a scheme is being devised and put into action then probably a trust or foundation would have to be put in place to maintain "Perpetuity" of such project.

    Anyway I'm WAAAAAAY out on a limb here... back to doing something productive ... LOL.
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  4. #914  
    Senior Member Justin Kirchhoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    I have to admit I was rather dismissive of the idea of a "Light field" camera coming from Jim Jannard. Basically professional film makers and cinematographers are not going to switch to light field cameras on mass over night. That will never happen.

    Just like 4K for the masses would never happen. Just like how the RED One was vaporware. Eh.
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  5. #915  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Kirchhoff View Post
    Just like 4K for the masses would never happen. Just like how the RED One was vaporware. Eh.
    He he...

    No.

    :-)

    The film industry just doesn't 'Think" that way in terms of how it adopts technology... Light field is a nice/niche application (with regards to the film industry (at best)).

    I have always been an advocate for the highest res imagery, still and dynamic... And I never thought that RED One was ever vaporware... There are many thousands of people that share my view / similar sentiment. Back then or now.

    Personally I would not mix up previous scuffles that Jim Jannard may or may not have had from certain (alleged... seemingly "precious") quarters of the Cinematic community and in some instances (some may claim) have been blown out of all proportion.

    I think that's why maybe Jannard is looking to fresher and more meaningful vistas. Perhaps?

    Believe it or not there are bigger and better things than the film industry or even the "Commercial" camera industry? What ever that means now in the "Snapchat" era?

    @Justin K... You are very welcome to champion light field technology for cinematic applications... (don't let anybody stop or influence you from that if that is your passion). But I would also say read through the patent specification and look at the diagrams. The thing that is immediately conspicuous is that the device is NOT mounted on a tripod or dolly or crane or anything else of that nature. It shows a guy/bloke holding something that looks like a small drinks tray (tilted 90 degrees forward) with two grab handles on each side; also showing captured imagery of a lion + various relevant interface elements on the back side. Doesn't scream immediate cinematic application at the get go, but that does not mean that the technology being used in other fields after 20 years or so does not find more widespread use in different mainstream media /deliverables in the future... Whatever those may be? Your guess is as good mine or anyone else's :-) .
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    ~ But the HYDROGENS I have kicking about the place could be "Handy" for a bit of reduced price KOMODO "Action" ;-)
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  6. #916  
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    I remember doing calculations to film every spot on earth from at least 8 angles. A meter, even 10 cm is reasonable resolution for practical purposes. But big security implications when you go to centimeter or millimeters. You can locate many people on the planet. Even if they hide their identity my methods can be used to construct body and face, and identify people by their walk and how they hold themselves, which is now out there (pretty sure that was one I was proposing) and body heat signature. From what I have heard (not what is reported) they could read newspaper headings when I was in primary school gems spy planes, still in primary school, I saw Nasa photos of ribits on the Skylab soacevstation, and friends of mine who have been involved with intelligence operations havebteported similar (think multiple sources). All crime scene footage can be opened up by court order. So, how much processing power, codec and storage is needed for that.

    However, my musing interest, has been sparked by reports of video evidence of the Tasmanian Tiger. Such a system could identify rare species. I used to go to school with a guy that said he had seen a Tasmanian Tiger in Cape Tribulation, or the Daintree. It is a vast wilderness area up there bigger than Tasmania or England, with a number of strange creatures reported (such as giant reptiles). Up there has more similarities to the Amazon than to Tasmania. However, I'd love to run into a news crew up town doing on the spot topical interviews and tell them about this guys story, as I suspect it could just maybe, be made up, and wouldn't mind dropping him in it.

    So that is around 12 million pixels across. So that is around 144 terrabyte at least per image, minus the area outside the sphere. Much of the time at the 1 meter resolution, the image is going to be relatively static, making dir great compression once you remove waves and the waving plant life in the image. However, you could just concentrate on places of interest, that might be less than 10% the surface area of the planet much of the time,even 1%. So thousands to one compression+, when you take into consideration the light from the sun and moon. Now, what is going to handle that, mqdca.
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  7. #917  
    Senior Member Justin Kirchhoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    He he...

    No.

    :-)

    The film industry just doesn't 'Think" that way in terms of how it adopts technology... Light field is a nice/niche application (with regards to the film industry (at best)).

    I have always been an advocate for the highest res imagery, still and dynamic... And I never thought that RED One was ever vaporware... There are many thousands of people that share my view / similar sentiment. Back then or now.

    Personally I would not mix up previous scuffles that Jim Jannard may or may not have had from certain (alleged... seemingly "precious") quarters of the Cinematic community and in some instances (some may claim) have been blown out of all proportion.

    I think that's why maybe Jannard is looking to fresher and more meaningful vistas. Perhaps?

    Believe it or not there are bigger and better things than the film industry or even the "Commercial" camera industry? What ever that means now in the "Snapchat" era?

    @Justin K... You are very welcome to champion light field technology for cinematic applications... (don't let anybody stop or influence you from that if that is your passion). But I would also say read through the patent specification and look at the diagrams. The thing that is immediately conspicuous is that the device is NOT mounted on a tripod or dolly or crane or anything else of that nature. It shows a guy/bloke holding something that looks like a small drinks tray (tilted 90 degrees forward) with two grab handles on each side; also showing captured imagery of a lion + various relevant interface elements on the back side. Doesn't scream immediate cinematic application at the get go, but that does not mean that the technology being used in other fields after 20 years or so does not find more widespread use in different mainstream media /deliverables in the future... Whatever those may be? Your guess is as good mine or anyone else's :-) .
    Yeah, I was more commenting on your quote about how people don't switch to technologies overnight. I agree on that, however, once the ball gets rolling...

    And I haven't seen the recent Patent specifications. So that further displays that I was not commenting on what Jim has been working on.
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  8. #918  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Light Field vs conventional camera is starting to sound like Digital vs Film... and we all know how that turned out.

    IF a Light Field video camera is what Jim is about I suspect it will play out much like 1080p vs 4k... and we all know how that is turning out.

    The thing is, things are turning over at a much faster rate than ever before so I expect the RED One-like first release of a camera as described in the patent filing posted here to be embraced by those who are familiar with the tech and can grasp any potential while the more cautious hold back until it is proven.

    Once that happens, and it may take a few years to convince skeptics just like it took at least that long to get a 4k consensus, but once that happens RED has once again led the way.

    Just thinking out loud: I'm wondering if the .RED codec will somehow be utilized to keep the enormous file sizes down.
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  9. #919  
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    The patent is not really light field as in the patented technology, but the more conventional multi can technology, that doesn't require an complex sensor, and can easily be made big.

    When I was coming up with things in the 90's I thought of camera arrays to replace a number of camera actions and post processing. If you look around here years back you see I propose a very large sensor area, maybe even multiple sensor like this, for post.
    An explorer explores new ideas and things, but somebody stuck in mud, complains.
    - But the explorer complains about how much better the territory he has discovered is instead.

    -Since when has denying that the possible is possible been reason? Such is the life of some skepticism.
    -Normalcy involves what is realistically possible, not just what you say.
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  10. #920  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini View Post
    The patent is not really light field as in the patented technology, but the more conventional multi can technology, that doesn't require an complex sensor, and can easily be made big.

    When I was coming up with things in the 90's I thought of camera arrays to replace a number of camera actions and post processing. If you look around here years back you see I propose a very large sensor area, maybe even multiple sensor like this, for post.
    You're right Wayne... they actually call it dense field IIRC.
    One camera is a shoot...but four (or more'-) Hydrogens is a prohhhh-duction... Elsie the Wraith
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