Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: New Epic-W vs. Alexa Mini test

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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Lol.

    When is anyone going to understand that if they have different sensitivities, but you shoot them at the same ISO, then one camera is going to be exposed perfectly and the other will be underexposed/overexposed and push/pull processed (in camera)?

    Would you compare ASA 100 film and ASA 500 film the same way? Meter and light both for 500 and complain that the 100 speed film lost all it's shadow detail by being underexposed 2 1/3 stops and pushed back to normal?

    Someone could come out with an ISO 50 native cinema camera and shoot it along side Alexa, both at 800, for a "true comparison" and claim it has many more stops of "highlight retention." Yeah, there might be no shadow information left, but check out that highlight retention!

    Ugh. Frustrating. And for what it's worth, I still love the images coming from ARRI.
    RED is a different tool for a different job.
    Agreed on the different tool for a different job but i thought this was an interesting test. There seems to be more detail in the highlights and shadows--something i have definitely seen myself when shooting Alexa and Red back to back or on the same project. The extra shadow detail is always a big takeaway. It makes two low light images that share the same middle grey look very different.
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member Kemalettin Sert's Avatar
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    Phil you are saying if they shot at 1600/3200 ISO Helium would perform better than Alexa?
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member David Kellermann's Avatar
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    I'm always using the low light OLPF, since in my opinion it gives me the most "organic" results, and expose for 2500iso.

    One feature that is in my opinion amazing (but difficult to use on projects where I'm not responsible for the post production) is HDR-X. Would be interesting to do a direct comparison between the Helium sensor with HDR-x 2 at 2500iso and the Alev III sensor.

    Anyway, I don't think that the test is so bad. It shows that both cameras perform stellar and make great images and that the differences aren't that big.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tracy Babcock View Post
    http://nofilmschool.com/2017/02/shoo...-epic-w-helium


    A few people I know conducted this shootout, having shot it almost two months ago. They just finished post on it this week, with the final published results appearing on NFS today.


    It's one of the better tests I've yet seen, and all those involved are incredibly talented commercial/narrative DP's, along with a top-notch colorist.


    I have to say the results have me a bit disappointed, as the 6-year old sensor in the Mini outperforms the Helium in many of the of categories tested. Including most notably, a stop and a half difference in highlight retention. There are absolutely some caveats, which they note in the write-up, including:

    - Both cameras are rated at 800 ISO, though they found the Helium should be rated more accurately around 1280 (which to me should be the biggest variable to consider)
    - They performed this test prior to the newest version of IPP2, while obviously the Alexa's pipeline has had years to mature.
    - They conduced the entire test with the Standard OLPF
    - They shot the Helium at 6:1 Compression in 8KHD, though Resolution was not part of the test.


    However with that all being said, and as a VV depositor who just sent in their CF Weapon for upgrade to Helium I really hope there's more to be pulled out of the new sensor. The DxO test, which I believe tests the raw sensor prior to most processing (please correct me if this is wrong) definitely shows the Helium to be a clear upgrade to Dragon, while I'm not sure this text exactly confirms that.

    Cool test.


    There is one fundamental flaw though.

    Tests like these test camera + LUT performance.


    Having thoroughly tested both of these I can say without a shred of doubt that both of these can achieve better results.


    ...




    In addition, they tested at same ISO because objective tests are done in same conditions.
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  5. #25  
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    Goes to show what an amazing sensor Alev 3 really is. It's nearly 10 years old and Red still hasn't catched up to them.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member Kemalettin Sert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milano Questa View Post
    Goes to show what an amazing sensor Alev 3 really is. It's nearly 10 years old and Red still hasn't catched up to them.
    Even Arri cant make better sensor than Alev3 lol :)
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member Anthony Berenato Jr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalettin Sert View Post
    Phil you are saying if they shot at 1600/3200 ISO Helium would perform better than Alexa?
    The base for Helium is right around 1600. If you look at the chip charts in Phils 8K video, you'll see the massive shift into the shadows that Helium has over Dragon. That being said, it would have been more wise to match the chip charts of both cameras to a comparable middle gray and then did work from there.

    Of course there's no highlight retention - because the sensor isn't made to retain those highlights pushed at 800 ISO with the base shift. It's also very hard to test a camera that is about choice. For highlight retention, most of us would put in the Highlight OLPF. For low light, the LL. While a test like this is appreciated, we're only seeing soft serve vanilla from a machine that also does multiple flavors of strawberry, chocolate, orange sherbet, and that weird kind that you're not sure if you should try but is probably really good.
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member Dean Butler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherrick View Post
    I'm about to grab some popcorn and watch this one unfold.... :-)
    Almost cried laughing at this comment Steve. Come to think of it... I've got some popcorn in the pantry
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  9. #29  
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    1600 base ISO for Helium with skintone highlight olpf IMO.

    That said, I shoot night interior work like this at 250 or 500 and just distribute the image where I want it.

    If something is close to looking clippy it's going to look clippy. You can only sort of use a lightmeter and just set the aperture where you set it, but I find using the exposure tools available to us along with a lightmeter for ratio setting (key to fill, key to backlight - to yield the right kind of results.

    If these were originally exposed with redgamma 4, dragon color 2, no amount of ipp2 post is going to change how they were exposed.

    Anyway, I'm not a red Apologist, you either like the cameras and use them, or you don't, but a test like this makes resultant expectations for newcomers very poor around the ecosystem.

    Meh. Whatever.

    I'm fine.

    I absolutely hated Helium when it arrived because of no calibration for the sensor... I knew it would get better , but I'll be honest, I've come to expect more preparation before a release to the public.

    There was a decent amount of time between Helium storm trooper exclusive and when I finally got my hands on it.

    Happy to have the tools, and will continue to be a reduser, but hey, it is what it is.

    I'd also like to add I missed out on a multi tens of thousands dollar rental of my weapon 6K carbon fiber body to a project because I got submarined by Red offering the client a White 8K Helium.

    That left a real bitter taste in my mouth.
    Last edited by Dan Kanes; 02-16-2017 at 07:20 AM.
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  10. #30  
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    Both a Ferrari and a Honda have wheels, drive, and are cars.

    Lets test them.
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