Have you paid back your $30K+ investment?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Marc and Steve
Wait till you get your Red and you will see. Insurance, cables, repairs, matte box follow focus, monitors etc. It just begin with the Red you can never know when it ends.

True, but hopefully anyone buying the camera at least has some realization of this. However, this is true with just about any piece of equipment, not just cameras.

As for your own projects this is something else. If you plan one project every year for the next 5 years and these projects will sell than you may return your investment at least from not renting a 35mm camera. But this only happen if you are a fruitful producer/director, it will not happen if you are having a Red for just having it.

There are many ways to skin a cat, or so they say... Also many ways to make money with a camera like RED. Not everyone using it has to be a producer, director, filmmaker, etc.. I've incorporated RED into two of my businesses, neither of which involve filmmaking. ...Filmmaking is something I do as a hobby and it usually involves half-assing a script together the day of the shoot once I see who actually shows up to participate.

As for some of us who bought it for renting we will just have to wait and see but with a camera which is still fighting for its place on the stage and with 4000 others and two "sisters" that are coming you can not be too sure.

Rentals are a tough way to go. I think if you have a decent RED kit, renting it can be a way to generate a little extra when you're not using it, but I would never go out and buy a piece of equipment like a RED One just for the purpose of renting it out. Unless I was already an established rental house just looking to pick up one more piece of rental gear.

[Charles Nader]

Charles,
have you tried shooting 4K and editing it at home on your Mac? Have you tried doing it for a feature film? or most of Red owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie?
And like you said what about CC? DI? and the rest for bringing it to final?
If you are a production company and have a feature to shoot for a budget of $200K which will return even only $300K and you plan on doing 5 features for the next 5 years then this is something else.
But I think a lot bought this camera for renting it and I doubt if they see their money back with Red's marketing strategy.

Hi gdv,

Actually, no...not yet. But I read and been talking to people that are using Mac Pro and are editing the RED files...maybe not 4K but in ProRes422 for commericals and feature films. They can shoot, transfer, edit, and do a final edit...maybe not 4K final but if your feature is a good movie...you should be able to raise the dough or budget to output it in 4K or make a 35mm print. Again, if there is a interest in your movie, and if they (distributors) think they can make a profit...they will spend the money to do so. Sure, CC and DI are expensive but at least we (filmmakers/artist) can now do it from the comfort of their home than an editing bay at a post house. In the future, it will be available, and yes, it will be cheaper. A RED workflow will be developed and pioneered for all to use as reference...it will be a glorious 4K world.

"Most RED owners plan of making a short 5 minutes movie? Why...they can make a 3hr epic movie, edit and output in 2k or HD and see if their is interest. If not, make another one. That's the point of the camera is, like the digital SLR market. Most Pro photograhers are all shooting digital, because its cheaper, faster and easier like our RED is.

Just because 4000-5000 RED ONE will be out in the marketplace doesn't mean the camera will be dead. Look at the digital SLR market, you can buy a amazing 35mm + (10-12 megapizel) camera, get great images, but not everyone is a Pro photographer. You still need talent and decidation, and computer know how (Photoshop) to hone your craft and most aren't willing to do. Some are and they become Pro's because now they have the chance... never had it before using just amazing digital instruments.

I think most RED users here, are not only using it to rent. They are aspiring filmmakers/artist/DP to venture in their own project or in the world of 4k to show their talents in different ways to show the best images possible and that is why the RED One was invented, thanks Jim and co...

My two cents...

[Tom Lowe]

Finishing 4K is pointless unless you are doing a filmout, so this is sort of a false argument to keep harping on the point that 4K is so "difficult" on modern computers. Nevermind that computers double in power every 11 months or so. People are not giving you a hard time because you are dissing Red. They are giving you a hard time because your arguments don't make a lot of sense, gdv.

There is no reason to finish at 4K with a Red One unless you are doing filmout... The camera barely has 3K worth of information going to your recording device. You can always save the RAW 4K files as archives, just in case your masterpiece is the 1 in a 1,000 that Weinstein decides to distribute. But otherwise, finish at 2K, which any decent editing system should be able to handle.

To claim that you cannot earn back 30K is silly. If your rental rate is $1,000/day for a package, hopefully you will shoot that many days (30) in the first six months or a year. For bigger shows, if you are DPing or whatever, you might get much, much higher rates.

Like I said, if you're a pro who shoots a lot and knows a lot of people you will earn the 30K back quickly. If you're a noob or live in Timbuktu, it will take much longer.

To use the DSLR analogy, any chump on Flickr can spend $15,000 on a Canon 1DsM3 and lenses, or $40K on a Hassy, but it's only the pros who will earn that investment back quickly. If you're shooting your kids and dogs you will not.

[michael webb]

the film and television market has always had economic barriers to entering into the industry. mainly the price of the machinery to produce the end product. I think you have to follow the trends of other industries and see how things are going to go ..

the two simple and most closely aligned would be the print and photography industries. photography would be the closest right now due to the equipment. any consumer can go to B&H or wolf camera etc and buy a pro class camera and lens. what he does with it is up to him the cost difference between a advanced amateur and pro class digital SLR body is not 100x difference more like 2x to 3x. I think this is where RED is pushing for and others will be soon especially since things have gone digital. digital means no tolerances in the MFG process nor crazy material costs between plastic gears and metal gears etc. This will bring cost down in an ever increasing fashion. the glass will always make a difference. But the difference between bodies will shrink. The cost of buying into the game shrink dramatically and no longer will it be pay to play but every man for himself. look at the print world. the old school printshops with the bins of type and books of clip art are long gone. Every one does it their selves on a PC in their office and sends it off to a duplicator, excuse me, output house who makes the quantities. this is a trend that has been going on for a couple of decades it happen in the 60s for the photo guys with the advent of the easy to use SLRs and in the 90s with the printshops. It will happen to the video guys at the turn of this century and it will happen to the film world. what will mater is the craftsmanship of those who use the tools and their creativity.

the thing is, tools are a product of technology, and have been since they were created, technology pushes the price down of the tools, putting the tools into more peoples hands which drive the creation of more tools and better processes and improved tools at a lower cost and into more peoples hands. over and over. A "red" camera and any camera are subject to this chain. the technology will change. I mean how many real day to day, making money, earning a living photographers shoot on medium format vs how many switched to digital. Kodak stopped making paper after a hundred years. ten years ago the industry would have called anyone a moron had they predicted that. how many furniture makers use a hand plane vs a power planer. yes thes cameras will be obsolete and for a lot of money. Post housed have changed with the digital technologies and the cameras are about to do the same. When they change the rental house and ownership of the tools will change accordingly. Add in the changes in distribution, I think certain practices will change. just remeber the golden ages of the cowboys and cattle drives were only about 50 years. The cowboys are mostly in movies and there's a hamburger stand on every corner.

I surely hope you are right, but I doubt.
There are a few points that stand against all this.
1. The Red one camera was created to be a motion picture camera, to create images for the big screen. That's how it was presented >>> 4K!!!
2. However, from what I read people are having it to shoot their kids and family?... they have in hand a powerful tool but not more than ... to have the feeling that they are part of the desirable glamorous Hollywood-Motion-Picture-industry...?
3. The motion picture industry was in the last 30-40 years a rental market.
4. Flooding the market with more than 4000 Red one cameras that are still in the process of building (15, 16, 17...) doesn't work for this kind of industry.
5. Working on two other models (Scarlet and Epic) while the first camera is still struggling to survive doesn't help.
I had this argument with other owners before, I quoted big rentals house, users attacked me for that because they don't like to hear that.
There is a big chance that in a few years 4000 people will have a camera in their hand and will be able to do nothing with it.
If you look at the history of the film you will find tens of formats from 9.5mm 17mm 20 something mm, 3 x projections, 360 degrees projections with syncronized 11 projections, drive-in movies etc that are nothing today. When it is film it is still 35mm mostly.
I hope I am wrong but I maybe right big time.

[Nick Gardner]

the film and television market has always had economic barriers to entering into the industry

Only if you want to open a rental house and buy a bunch of gear. The majority of industry professionals don't own equipment. And even if you did want to start a rental house, it would be no different than wanting to start a company that makes table saws. You have to borrow money, have a plan and make it work. It doesn't make any difference whether you are buying a million dollars worth of film gear, or a million dollars worth of Mills, metal brakes, and grinders.

digital means no tolerances in the MFG process nor crazy material costs between plastic gears and metal gears etc.

This does not apply to the motion picture industry. the camera body is just one investment, and although a pricey one, I have way more money invested in AKS and support than the camera body. I have yet to see a digital ARRI head, and I'm sure that Jim will be glad to hear that because of digital he will no longer have to have his 19mm rods precision ground, and I'm sure that all those new digital follow focus motors have no moving parts. Hell I guess when I get my Red I can sell all my machine tools.

This stuff is expensive. It will always be expensive. Anything cheaper than what most stuff sells for now will be a compromise of some sort. When you buy the best made, made the best way, regardless of how expensive it is to make, failure is not an option shit, it is going to cost money. Period.

No body is making you spend money on gear. I don't understand this feeling that so many hobbiest/indie film makers have that some how they are entitled to make films, and Holly Wood is trying to screw them out of their god given right. It is hard to make films well. If you want someone to hire you to do it, you should probably have a lot of experience working on sets, and be able to prove that you can bring a quality production in on time, and on budget.

There are plenty of shooters that make great pictures but are shitty DP's. Being a good DP, at least one that makes a living, is as much about making the day, as it is about making it pretty. If you shoot fabulous glorious images, but you only make half your day, or go into stupid overtime and meal penalties because you were not co-ordinating the three depts. you are in charge of well, you are going to get fired.

It is the Film BUSINESS.

Ok, thats enough, just got home from a really long shoot.

;-)

Nick

[laguun]

Hi,

I was discussing a project on Thursday & got offered a Red for free for a production.

Stephen

Why dont you use your own red? i thought you bought 50% of one?

[Stephen Williams]

Why dont you use your own red? i thought you bought 50% of one?

Hi,

I already told you I don't have an investment in Red at this time. I don't like supplying equipment on Paying jobs, I think it's a conflict of interest. I am being paid as a DOP, I should spend my time doing what I am paid for rather than eqipment support.

My best

Stephen

[Michael Lindsay]

I should spend my time doing what I am paid for rather than eqipment support.

I have allot of respect for this position. Debating this issue with myself at the moment. Problem is there isn't a hire house that could hire me the Red kit we bought.

One question: Why will you buy Epic?

Regards

Michael Lindsay

[Stephen Williams]

I have allot of respect for this position. One question: Why will you buy Epic?

Regards

Michael Lindsay

Hi,

I do have a personal project in mind for Epic, If that does not work out after testing, I will shoot it on 35mm. I won't rent it out, renting equipment is a major headache, they always want some equipment you don't have, somethimg will get broken, cables will get lost. I have some 35mm equipment I will use for 'B' roll, background plates & tests, but only if it's just me and a director, never with a client & big crew. In the last year I have used the kit 4 times, only once was paid.

Stephen