Another Basic Workflow Review

[JeffVFR]

I'm just starting up a RED project and am blurry eyed from all the research on workflow. No shortage of threads on workflow here, but it seems there are endless questions and many opinions on different ways to go. So here's my current workflow idea based on all my research. Any comments/tweaks/questions/advice/whatever greatly appreciated:

Project is a :60 spot. FCP 6.0.4. MacPro Dual 2.8, 10gigRAM.

Shoot 4k
Edit with 2k Proxies (I know there's debate on this vs ProRes conversion)
Create XML
Import into Crimson
Conform the R3D files in Crimson and color them.
Export new XML
Export colored shots to the file format of choice
Import new XML back into FCP
View new sequence with final colored footage
Export final QT's in format of choice

Makes sense to me but I haven't done it yet and haven't purchased Crimson yet.

Thoughts? Many thanks.

Jeff

[Steve Sanacore]

I'm just starting up a RED project and am blurry eyed from all the research on workflow. No shortage of threads on workflow here, but it seems there are endless questions and many opinions on different ways to go. So here's my current workflow idea based on all my research. Any comments/tweaks/questions/advice/whatever greatly appreciated:

Project is a :60 spot. FCP 6.0.4. MacPro Dual 2.8, 10gigRAM.

Shoot 4k
Edit with 2k Proxies (I know there's debate on this vs ProRes conversion)
Create XML
Import into Crimson
Conform the R3D files in Crimson and color them.
Export new XML
Export colored shots to the file format of choice
Import new XML back into FCP
View new sequence with final colored footage
Export final QT's in format of choice

Makes sense to me but I haven't done it yet and haven't purchased Crimson yet.

Thoughts? Many thanks.

Jeff

I don't think there is ever enough info on this subject. I too have been following the threads over the past year. As my camera gets closer to delivery (maybe next month), I am still totally confused by which way to go.

It seems like things keep changing and with the release of the SDK, they may change even faster in the coming months.

Looking forward to responses from the experts.

[Nicholas Shields]

Jeff:

If I could be so bold, here's some suggested alterations to your workflow (in all caps):

Shoot 4k
Edit with 2k Proxies (I know there's debate on this vs ProRes conversion)
Create XML
Import into Crimson
Conform the R3D files in Crimson
USE REDCINE TO DO EXPORT/FIRST PASS COLOR CORRECTION
Export new XML
Export colored shots to the file format of choice
Import new XML back into FCP
View new sequence with NEW colored footage
SEND TO COLOR (OR CC PROGRAM OF CHOICE)
BACK TO FCP
Export final QT's in format of choice

I hope this helps.

Nick

[JeffVFR]

Jeff:

If I could be so bold, here's some suggested alterations to your workflow (in all caps):

Shoot 4k
Edit with 2k Proxies (I know there's debate on this vs ProRes conversion)
Create XML
Import into Crimson
Conform the R3D files in Crimson
USE REDCINE TO DO EXPORT/FIRST PASS COLOR CORRECTION
Export new XML
Export colored shots to the file format of choice
Import new XML back into FCP
View new sequence with NEW colored footage
SEND TO COLOR (OR CC PROGRAM OF CHOICE)
BACK TO FCP
Export final QT's in format of choice

I hope this helps.

Nick

Oh yeah... I forgot to list that RedCine step. I did have that in my workflow plan and then the earthquake shook it out of my head. This is exactly the kind of thing that helps keep things confusing, so thanks for fixing this, Nick.

And actually, conforming the R3D files happens in RedCine, not Crimson as I stated originally. Dangit.

But now a new question. Why do one pass of color on RedCine then another on a different program?

Jeff

[ThomtheEditor]

Only if your footage needs further balancing/more complicated color pass (i.e. the secondary/power window tweaking) that a full spectrum coloring program can offer above and beyond basic HSL/RGB/Curves correction that redcine offers.

Long story short, not needed, unless you want to!
~Thom

[Philip Powell]

Indeed you can go blind considering all the various factors related to Red post.

For me the big issues related to workflow is that you must be fluid. One workflow will not work for all situations and all clients. You really must know several options so that you pick the best one for the project.

But how to narrow it to the best one for this project?

The first questions I ask related to Post are.
1. What's my deadline?
2. How much raw material was shot?
3. How much of it contains audio?
4. What kind of processing power do I have at hand?
5. What's my final output resolution?
6. How much am I getting paid for this project?
7. What are my client's quality expectations?

I would suggest doing a ton of time tests (prior to taking on a project needless to say) with renders out of Redcine, Redalert using full, standard and half debayer. Have hard numbers on how long it's going to take per mintue of footage to do a render out of Redcine with the hardware you have at hand.

Then do the math....your workflows will narrow.

Do some subjective visual tests on footage rendered out at various quality settings and compare them to the proxies. For some projects and clients simply using the proxies may be just fine, others not.

The only potential issue I see with the Crimson/Redcine workflow is that Redcine still has render problems (at least for me as of today) and can't be counted on as a rock solid part of a workflow where QT is the output. (DPX output seems to work fine.)

I don't really care to edit with the proxies, as they tend to stutter and flash, which if my client is sitting in the edit suite tends to make them nervous.

My current workflow for most projects (and by current, I mean this week).
1. import proxies into FCP (for their audio only)
2. Render out a full to standard debayer from Red Rushes (which for me works solidly) to a high quality codec.
3. Associate the audio from the proxies to the newly rendered Red Rushes if necessary.
4. Edit
5. Grade in Color.
6.Output

[Kaku Ito]

I had an editor and director worked in our studio today (this is the second time for them) and worked with following workflow. This saves the most time and disk space.

1. Import the whole folder of .R3D footage to FCP
2. edit with M size proxies with unlimited RT setting but full frame, high quality video setting. Use Matrox MXO to output to monitor. With fast enough RAID and Mac, it would mostly playback without stopping. If there are some sections that needs to render, simply render the section. Only takes about a minute. You can even use color correction plugin if director says that he needs to see the better picture, but explain to him that real color correction will be done in REDCINE and online post later. I also use MOTU V3HD (standalone conversion mode) connected via HDSDI from Matrox MXO then to 52" Bravia via HDMI and SD tube monitor to monitor various monitoring environment (not so important at offline editing but directors seems to like it).
3. create rushes if they want to take the edit result at home to watch it by export as QuickTime movies then use compressor and DVD Studio Pro to create DVD. You can also use Compressor and Encore to create Bluray if they have Bluray player.
4. If the offline edits were good, then create XML in FCP, process it with Crimson, export the project to REDCINE.
5. Process telecine in REDCINE, output to Apple Prores422HQ. During color grading with REDCINE, I setup Matrox MXO to output the REDCINE screen to Sony Master Monitor.
6. Process the roundtrip xml with Crimson to make relations with the output files with original offline XML.
7. Go back to FCP and import the roundtrip XML. Prores output footage will show up in the same edited timeline as the offline result. Edit more for the final touch, then send the project to Color.
8. Color grade in Color. After finishing, then render in color then send back to FCP.
9. Use FCP to make the master file or output to tape.

[Snow R. Shai]

Sir. Pancake

Great list of pre-production questions.
This list should be advised to anyone new to Red production.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Different approaches for different project parameters - totally agree.

Red Workflow - complicated or flexible? Sounds like an attitude issue to me.

Ultimately it comes back to the same mantra I have been repeating to clients for years; everyone wants it good, fast and cheap - pick two.

Final note - proper grading and finishing yields such a tremendous image that I find it frustrating when time and budget issues force shortcuts that shortchange what the RedOne can deliver.

[ThomtheEditor]

Everyone wants it good, fast and cheap - pick two.

Thats good, i'm totally stealing that from you >^_^<