Thread: What is the practical point of having a Helium 8K??

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Scot Yount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul engstrom View Post
    8k Helium LOVES lenses. Old ones. New ones. Cool ones. Weird ones. Shoot 8k with Summicron-C. Shoot 6k with old wide dodgy but pretty Cooke Panchros. No other camera does as good a job with as large an array of 35mm and S35mm lenses as the RED Weapon Helium.

    Its easy to match cameras in post. Much harder to match any Optimo except the EZ line (nice glass!) with any modern prime on RED 6k for the old sensors or 8k on the new (or Arri 3.2k) due too the illumination falloff inherent in the Optimos. But on Helium - shoot 7k and have a great time.

    Plus reframing, etc.

    Lenses. Don't underestimate them.

    Regarding low-light. Do you have a lighting budget? If you do, the Helium sensor is plenty bright. It is certainly not a dark sensor.

    If you don't have a lighting budget then there are a host of other considerations that come into play here.

    Gemini looks to be an excellent wildlife camera and also documentary camera and specialty situation camera for budgeted projects.

    That 8k Helium is killer nice if you want to exploit a range of glass
    To quote a phrase: What he said....
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  2. #22  
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    I just went Monstro because I’ve always loved the Vista look, but the Helium sensor is just absolutely gorgeous. Didnt regret at all going from Dragon to Helium, shot amazing footage and lots of high speed without any issues because of “crop” or “noise”. With ipp2 its a winner for everything.
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  3. #23  
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    Take a look at this...

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  4. #24  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    I have just been viewing some of our material on a 4k TV and I can say that the image from Helium is a LOT sharper than what I'm used to coming from our 5.1k Epic MX. This is of course because the image has been downsampled. There are several sharpness problems with a 5k image downscaled to 4k such as:
    - Debayer filter will loose sharpness always when you are close to 100%
    - The low pass filter will significantly reduce sharpness. The lowpass filter will be much less aggresive if the resolution is higher.
    - Also remember that not all lenses will cover well on Gemini so you may be shooting at 4.5k which is a bigger problem than going from 8k to 7.5k

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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Rakesh Malik's Avatar
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    I have pulled print quality frames from my Helium... and I've had Helium frames printed.

    IMO the main tradeoffs are thus:
    Helium can double as a high resolution stills camera -- its images look better than what I can get with my A7r until diffraction gets in the way.

    Gemini has less noise and hence can make a cleaner image at higher ISO, plus it requires far less cropping for high frame rates.

    4K 120 FPS footage looks phenomenal, but that 25% crop is a bit of a drag.

    IMO unless you plan on pulling frames for printing or using your camera as a hybrid with the intention of printing large (24x36 inches large), you wouldn't really be gaining that much with a Helium over a Gemini. For practical purposes in filmmaking, 5K is more than enough for most productions.

    And you still get the rest of the Red benefits, like 16 bit linear recording and Red's vastly improved color science.

    It's tough to go wrong either way, IMO.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    But if you got enough light and if the quality of the pixels are the same... one gives you a 8k image and the other a 5k image.
    And if the quality isn't the same then the quantity isn't just a bonus on top.
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  7. #27  
    Member Kyle Simukka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasOberg View Post
    Uses with 8k:
    - More future proof. 8k is coming
    Why do you think that?
    Last edited by Kyle Simukka; 07-02-2018 at 03:36 PM.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Simukka View Post
    Why do you think that?
    I think "futureproof" is not a good term to describe that the specs of a camera can stand up longer against new releases.
    All companys have the next big thing in development or even ready for sale in the closet when you buy something brand new.
    We all know that.

    It just feels better to be a head of new technology if your product does something unique and sets it apart from the rest.

    The good thing with a 8k RED is that the industry is not ready yet and so companys are not going to bring out more cameras with this feature now.
    Especially as the prosumer market rises Helium and Monstro will not be in the competition as 8k is not interresting but so versitile if you once worked with it.

    Dual ISO sensetivity for example is the big thing right now and as the BMD Pocket 4k, GH5s, EVA1, A7siii, come out we will see more and more low light one man army stuff that
    is impressive indeed and for documentary and run&gun work i'd love to have a Gemini as second camera.

    For me a good image needs light at the right spot to support the story and drag the focus of the audience to were you want it.

    I love the detail and crop fredom of todays stills cameras which are also 6k to 8k most of the time.
    Nobody complains about resolution there.
    Cropping in is a common thing in photography in my experience.

    I always wanted the same in Motion Picture but got stuck with resolution especially for 4k delivery.
    Which my clients really ask for today.

    Scaling up is what you can do and it works.
    but the results were just never so pleasing than cropping into 8k.
    The only thing what I don´t liked was 30fps limit on the Epic-W. Now with the 60 and 75fps 8k upgrade,
    you can use the whole sensor for decent slowmotion without cropping in.


    Another aspect I like about the 8k RAW is if you do stuff like stock or plates for compositing.
    8k serves you well.
    You have it in 2k-4k today.
    Tomorrow in 5-6k and even in 5 Years there will be enough quality to use It again.
    I shot a lot of smoke, dust, ink and lightflares stuff some years ago. That was in 1080p.
    No problem to use these on a 2k project but for 4k the upscaling wont look that good.
    Would have been great to have these in 8k.

    Oh and I also remember shooting Standart Definition on MiniDV, DiscCam and also VHS when I came across the 4.5K RED ONE.
    4.5k is crazy and Filesizes are so BIG is what they said. "Who needs that?" Look where we are now and the Red one still holds up to todays
    resolutions.

    I think that are some points what makes people say 8k is a little more "Futureproof"

    Practical points for me on Helium
    - Footage can be used for other projects even years later.
    - don´t get lazy with lighting and even digg deeper into that topic (For me personal)
    - cropping is king
    - 4k native delivery with all the luxury of reframing
    - 35mp RAW stills on 8k with 1/150 shutter while shooting video
    - The amount of detail I always wanted in a camera
    - greater ISO performence than other cameras I use to shoot on
    Last edited by Alexander_Klose; 07-03-2018 at 06:33 AM.
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  9. #29  
    Member Kyle Simukka's Avatar
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    All great points. This topic for me personally is interesting to follow. I'm in the process of deciding between the Helium or Gemini brain for my next RED purchase. Currently, I have the GH5s and the Red ONE MX.

    The GH5s has impressive low-light sensitivity and excels at run-and-gun situations. However, the level of dynamic range in the highs isn't that great, and it seems like the knee is relatively sharp in the top end of the dynamic range. I still haven't found the sweet spot for well-light situations, but in low-light, I'm reasonably happy with the color and low noise.

    So, with the GH5s in my arsenal, I have the opinion that the Helium would be complementary to the GH5s and gives me an 8k resolution to work with, which has several advantages. All of my work is mostly in 4K and 4k HDR.

    In addition to being an independent filmmaker, I also work in the industry as a software engineer. I specialize in encoding, transcoding, packaging, and delivery. What I think is interesting is with how 4k adoption has had healthy growth with OTT (over-the-top). But the adoption with other distribution methods has been slow or stagnant. I think this is because of the cost and bandwidth required to distribute 4k is an expensive technicial problem.

    I almost think HDR is a higher priority than 4k. HDR is impressive, but the cost of the TVs are still reasonably high, so it's hard to predict how adoption will trend. Although, it will be interesting to see how the iPhone-X changes that now that it supports both DolbyVision and HDR10 (https://support.apple.com/en-us/ht207949)
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  10. #30  
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    I am in this dilemma also to know which one i take, GEMINI or HELIUM. I noticed that GEMINI seems to have more dynamics in the shadows than HELIUM, as much as monstro see more. If the only argument of HELIUM is 8K I think to take GEMINI. I mainly do movies and ads so I think I do not need 8K but the definition attracts me ahah.
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