Thread: Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

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  1. #11  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    For the record, Alexa mini suffers the same shortcomings. Actually REDs at least have a scratch mic!
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  2. #12  
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    At what point in a RED rig is the audio digitized?

    Is it analog to the brain which has an ADC to convert?

    Or do the DSMC2 accessories handle ADC individually?

    My base expander I assume is unbalanced analog so I donít have a lot of hope for low SNR. But Iíve had the camera for two days and have shot zero audio so have no idea how bad it might be.

    My gear includes an F8 and some Senn mics but for one or two man runs I imagine onboard would be useful.


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  3. #13  
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    I find this better "in camera preamp" conversation to just be insane. Red already offers a module for better audio; off hollywood offers a better option, hell even wooden camera has an option. I've been shooting with an a-box to sennheisser lavs on my dsmc2 (and on my dsmc 1) for years. The built in preamps are good enough for broadcast work. The internal preamps are better in my opinion than any of the prosumer cameras out there that are popular right now( i.e Canon C series, Sony f series). In the last 6 months I wanted to get better sound though and upgraded to a sound devices mix pre 6 with a sennheisser 416 shotgun. I've used this combo in run n gun and studio configs. If you want better audio just go out and buy the options out now. No reason to get annoyed at red over it. I'm sure they know their consumers want better pre amps but they're a camera company, NOT an audio company. This argument is like telling a car company that you want a better on board computer in your car. Guess what? You gotta wait until the next model to get a better option. So I guess we will all have to wait until DSMC 3 for better in camera pre amps
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Steve DiMaggio's Avatar
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    Brian I will try to address how I over come each of these the best way I can, didn't realize you started the thread lol!


    1) the limited audio inputs in the camera - While you can record 4 inputs it seems that 2 are limited to the internal camera mics (scratch track quality) leaving only 2 that can be used to input mic audio. I believe at least 4 distinct audio input tracks (like the RED ONE) is presents a more useful options.-Yes 4 would be sick! Especially since I feed my IO with a wireless mono signal, in those cases I use external recorder

    2) Use of PRO connectors- I think XLR connectors and mini XLR should be the standard. They are properly balanced and have proper physical locking built into the connect to make it solid in the field.-Full on XLR, mini xlr is a pain unless it is locking, or maybe like a 4 pin hirose

    3) Issues with getting proper mic levels going into the camera and incomplete support for phantom power.-yes you do need quality level coming into the camera, my lectrosonic sounds great going into my camera, but for anything critical I do use the mix pre, here is a great option for on set https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...-mic-activator
    (according to some user reports)

    4) Clean audio with no digital pops, hiss, or other phenomena that contaminates the signal.-I don't get any issues on my io, I do get them with the scratch mics, but even find them very useable actually for dancefloor mixed with the direct signal, just have to get the levels right, I never mix with my ears only with my eyes
    (according to some user reports)

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    I "upgraded" from a scarlet mx to a w and to my surprise the W doesn't offer phantom power. This made it impossible to use the mics I have. Now I have to run a mix pre 6 on my shoulder rig, and run a line out to the red. This works however I cant hear playback on my footage in my headphones. I only get playback from the RED W on the scratch mics. its annoying. I love everything else about the camera, it has given me 0 issues.
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    Most of my shoots will have a sound person, but there are a few corporate gigs that I handle myself. For those I used to use my Sound Devices 302 which works great. But I have to admit was a little cumbersome to setup quickly. Since then I have been playing with 2 products from Beachtek. The Alexa model and the Cine. I was actually very pleasantly surprised at how clean the preamps are on these devices. In fact the price differences are very different but they actually performed the same. I'll have a full review shortly. I don't record on-board audio enough to warrant an expensive pre-amp and I wanted to remove it if not needed.

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  7. #17  
    Senior Member Michael Lindsay's Avatar
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    Hi.. Most of the tine I shoot MOS and my partner is always in Dual system setups... but inline with Bob's position and suggestion we have looked for sonething that is:

    Cheap and reliable for the odd occasion we just want to go into the camera
    offers good preamps
    Dual channel
    48v phantom if needed..
    Good limiters
    outputs non balanced output for Red DMC2
    Light weight so it can be strapped to the camera easily

    and importantly for us we can eaily pull it off for 90% of our stuff..

    we found this

    http://www.filmtontechnik.de/en/prod...ch/dslr-mixer/

    IMPORTANT NOTE....and they also made us a tiny 3.5mm to 3.5mm 40euro ground isolator....to make sure you don't get nasty nosie when powering any audio device from the same battery as the camera..

    Over the weekend I will grabs some pics and maybe some sound files and see if thay helps anyone... Also it took us time to work out the best way for us to quickly attach and detach which I am happy to share?



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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    I think a lot of you are missing the point.

    We know that dual system may be superior and/or that there are dozens of ways to kludge together inputs, preamps, 48V etc. and (probably) can be made pretty reliable - but not nearly as bulletproof reliable as XLRs - and the info about dual system or various rig workarounds should probably be in another thread.

    I (and I think a bunch of others) want something FROM RED that addresses the needs of "run and gun", documentary and EFP style small unit/one man camera operator production. Something like that REDVOLT expander minus the REDVOLT portion.

    It is my unsubstantiated but I think true opinion that the majority of RED cameras that are used on paying jobs are in this style of shooting rather than "cinema" as I just don't think there is enough paid "cinema" production around to support the tens of thousands of RED cameras out there.

    And we shouldn't have to rely on third parties for this basic function and there doesn't seem to be any technical or business reason why it can't be done by RED.

    To my mind this thread should be about 2 things. 1) simply chiming in and letting RED know how many are interested and 2) any input/ideas on what the module should include/look like. For instance it would be really nice if the module had some small knobs for adjusting the levels - similar to the old Betacams, prosumer camcorders, etc.

    BTW I have a $2k 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with all the bells and whistles, time code, etc. so it isn't a matter of being cheap - it is that we want/need something sleek, reliable, and user friendly for "run and gun" and EFP shooting.
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  9. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    I think a lot of you are missing the point.

    We know that dual system may be superior and/or that there are dozens of ways to kludge together inputs, preamps, 48V etc. and (probably) can be made pretty reliable - but not nearly as bulletproof reliable as XLRs - and the info about dual system or various rig workarounds should probably be in another thread.

    I (and I think a bunch of others) want something FROM RED that addresses the needs of "run and gun", documentary and EFP style small unit/one man camera operator production. Something lock that REDVOLT expander minus the REDVOLT portion.

    It is my unsubstantiated but I think true opinion that the majority of RED cameras that are used on paying jobs are in this style of shooting rather than "cinema" as I just don't think there is enough paid "cinema" production around to support the tens of thousands of RED cameras out there.

    And we shouldn't have to rely on third parties for this basic function and there doesn't seem to be any technical or business reason why it can't be done by RED.

    To my mind this thread should be about 2 things. 1) simply chiming in and letting RED know how many are interested and 2) any input/ideas on what the module should include/look like. For instance it would be really nice if the module had some small knobs for adjusting the levels - similar to the old Betacams, prosumer camcorders, etc.

    BTW I have a $2k 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with all the bells and whistles, time code, etc. so it isn't a matter of being cheap - it is that we want/need something sleek, reliable, and user friendly for "run and gun" and EFP shooting.
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Frank Glencairn's Avatar
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    I was saying this for quite a while now, we need a paradigm shift in audio - this is 2018 after all, I can't believe we are still recording on a separate device.

    I propose a field mixer with excellent pre amps/ADC, that has a SDI out (that's up to 16 digital channels - should be more than enough for everything), and a SDI in on the camera, for on board audio recording. And yes that's a cable. But actually, on every set I work, I have a ton of cables hanging around, I wouldn't mind an other one, to get up to 16 digital audio channels direct in camera.

    The tec is already there since years, no R&D necessary, just implementation - why nobody does that is beyond me. Seems the natural thing to do.
    Last edited by Frank Glencairn; 05-19-2018 at 04:46 AM.
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