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  1. #1 Using LTO-8 for backup? 
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Hiya,
    Does anyone use LTO tape for backup. The new LTO-8 has 12TB drives costing about 140.

    The drive is about 3200 so quite an investment to startup with.
    My idea would be to have all videos at spinning disk, and then have 2 backups, one local and one offsite both on tapes.
    The main thing I want to improve is security of the backups as spinning drives are not known for doing so well for long term storage.

    One thing I am a bit concerned about is iterative updates. Often I have say a big folders called Sea Birds. As time goes this folder increases from 1TB to say 8TB. With tape I think you need to format the tape every time you do a backup, which means iterative updates would take a long time. Maybe this is not the case if you add new folders.

    Any thoughts would be welcome.
    /Andreas
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  2. #2  
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    Hello Andreas,

    You only need to format the tape once, then you can incrementally add data as you go. You could use LTFS which let's you drag and drop like a hard drive, but if you're looking for something that backs up new content daily, then you'd want to go with a traditional TAR backup software.

    If you're talking about SAS drives being 3200 Euro, MagStor offers them for about 2800 euro. https://magstor.com/collections/magstor-sas-tape-drives


    Are you on Windows or MAC?
    Last edited by Tim Gerhard; 08-01-2018 at 11:37 AM.
    Tim Gerhard
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Hi Tim. That sounds promosing.
    It is not for incremental backup. More when we add new videos. Say Sri Lanka. Day
    1. Day 2 day 3 etc.
    I just wanted to be sure that I do not need to format when I add day2.
    Also am I insane for considering bringing one on longer shoots. Imagine 6 weeks where we film 2tb each day. That would be 60x2 or 3. In total 180tb of data so about 20kg of spinning drives.
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  4. #4  
    I’ve got lots of experience with LTO over the past 14 years or so... Not sure I would recommend bringing it on set unless it’s always in a clean/ dry location and on a stable equipment cart or in a mobile studio type setup. The drives can be temperamental and are not rugged. You can put them in a semi-portable/ rugged enclosure, but that doesn’t make the drive mechanisms any less fragile. The tapes themselves are rugged with excellent shelf life.

    Data renewal and migration becomes a real practice with LTO. For example, due to continuous obsolescence and planned incompatibility with prior versions of the format, you have to migrate to newer tapes every few years. This is a good practice with any long-term data storage, but it takes time and adds additional cost. I’m planning to migrate all my LTO3 and LTO4 archives over to LTO8 the first of next year. LTO4 is 800MB uncompressed (more like 750MB real-world), so I’m expecting to condense 14 or 15 LTO4 tapes into a single LTO8.

    In reality, this sort of migration is essential at some point no matter what archival medium you choose. HDDs need to be refreshed and spun up and replicated here and there, even if interface standards don’t change as often. I do a lot of trimming and purging of the old stuff where I only keep the best or most important things and that also helps downsize. Unfortunately I’m a pack rat to some extent so I won’t destroy most of those old LTO4 tapes, they’ll remain in storage with the drive, just in case.

    LTO is very cost-effective vs. HDD storage once you write enough data to tape in order to offset the cost of the LTO unit. Data rates or speeds writing to the tape are manageable, but still slower than HDD even though they get faster with each generation.
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  5. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gerhard View Post
    Hello Andreas,

    You only need to format the tape once, then you can incrementally add data as you go. You could use LTFS which let's you drag and drop like a hard drive, but if you're looking for something that backs up new content daily, then you'd want to go with a traditional TAR backup software.

    If you're talking about SAS drives being 3200 Euro, MagStor offers them for about 2800 euro. https://magstor.com/collections/magstor-sas-tape-drives


    Are you on Windows or MAC?
    bookmarked.
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  6. #6  
    I've been using an all in one LTO 5 system (1Beyond) for the past 6 years (approximately). I've taken it on location, both here and overseas. It's worked without any problems, but I've always kept it clean and dry. However, I still back everything up to field drives and RAIDS once back at base.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Hiya. Rhat is interesting Jeff. I would not bring it into the field bit have it at a hotel. So I guess as loxg as it would survive the airplane it would be fine.
    It is incredible how the tapes get bigger. Already at 12tb.
    Btw Jeff have uou tried the new Hotachi 14tb drives? I consider running 2 in raid 0.
    Last edited by AndreasOberg; 08-02-2018 at 01:58 AM.
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  8. #8  
    Long term backup is always an issue!

    As Jeff says every few generations, compatibility is lost with tapes. I have DLT, SDLT, LTO3 and so on that frankly i doubt i could restore from even if i wanted. So actually that cost of tape does not take into account the fact that you can't actually long term archive it practically, because the hardware changes. Lets not even go to the boxes of Jazz discs, Zip Drives and god knows what in my loft.

    One thing to consider is that there are dedicated spinning discs designed for archive and cold storage. Seagate have some 8TB ones (last time i looked). They write slower but read normally and are supposed to be more robust and the price is around the same as those LTO tapes.

    https://www.seagate.com/gb/en/suppor...s/archive-hdd/

    I suspect cloud storage one day will be the solution, so a company that is dedicated to constantly migrating data as it's primary business. Once the network speeds become usable.

    cheers
    Paul
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Did some calculations. 400TB of data would cost 3600 plus 2400 on LTO and about 11400 on spinning disks. Weight would be 6.7 (plus 4kg drive) vs 27kg.

    Sorry for all the text guys....

    Cost/Weight Analysis
    LTO HDD
    12tb 110 340
    100TB x 2 cost 1800 3.3kg 5700 13.5kg
    Plus drive 4200 +4.3=7.6kg -”-
    200TB x 2 cost 3600 6.7kg 11,400 27kg

    So LTO seems like a winner for me.

    This is how I am currently thinking:

    ---- EDITING STATION 1----
    Use Raid 0 with only 2 disks for the main editing station. This gives 28TB if using the new 14TB disks and should give a speed of max 550MB that goes down to about 400MB when disks are getting fuller but since only using 2 disks the risk is greatly reduced compared to 4 array.
    Currently I have a Raid 10 with 8x8TB disks but this only gives 30TB so it is VERY costly.
    If I need more speed I could do Raid 0 with say 3 or 4 disks. Personally I have not had that much problems with speed when I edit since Red 8k media needs about 270MB/s. Worth testing how it handles transitions of course since it is reading from 2 places but reading from multiple places on disk will usually be slow anyway. Also I normally generate optimized media in lower resolution that I can run on an SSD when editing so it is really the color grading that needs the full media.

    Then have 1 backup on site with LTO Tapes and 1 offsite LTO backup.

    Currently we have Xeon 2x14 2.7GHz and 2xTitan X. Plan on upgrading to new 1180 when they arrive. I cannot playback 8k on my current machine, but with 1080 TI is is possible so 1180 should be even better hopefully.

    ---- EDITING STATION 2 -----------
    Will probably get the new AMD 32 core next year with a 1180. Not sure how to deal with editing here. Maybe use a 10Gbit network to my machine or just copy the data to other raid disks locally.

    ---- Very short trips ---------
    Bring our 8TB ssd, light and fast. Maybe our 8TB 2.5 inch disks that are slow

    ---- MEDIUM LENGTH oversees trips ----
    1-2 weeks
    Bring 2 or 3 14TB 3.5 inch disks and the SSDs for backup.

    ---- LONG LENGTH oversees trips ----
    1-2 month. Oh yea.....
    LTO Drive
    LTO 8 tapes. As many as needed

    Maybe 3.5 14TB disk as master so we can browse the data on-site.

    Any thoughts would be more than welcome. Are the LTO drives sturdy enough to be in the cabin?
    Andreas
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Simon Dunne's Avatar
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    Have been using LTO for years also, but recent came across the 3592 tape format. Has anyone experienced them or had a play?
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