Too Deep! 2k night shoot on short notice?!

[Pierce Cook]

Rather, before I get in too deep, I'm looking for some feedback.

I've been contacted about a film that will shoot in a few months and the prospect of shooting RED. Here's the scenario:


It's almost wholly a night shoot with limited lighting. I think there's enough light to make it work, but I've not done a night shoot in a while, and I've not shot with RED yet (though I've been dying to).

I would like some thoughts on shooting 2k at night with RED, perhaps setting suggestions? We would be going 2k b/c more than anything we can't handle the 4k data in post right now (we're okay with that).

Going into post is making me nervous. As much as I want to tackle this, the budget isn't there for a great DI and finish. Are there coloring solutions for a low budget indie wanting to get it's feet wet with RED? I assume Apple's COLOR is a joke, in this regard? Perhaps not? Will 2k handle okay at night from RED? I don't want to crank the ASA too much.

Keep in mind first and foremost this is an adventure in tech, too, for some. All anxious to go for it and learn from it, but I don't want them to be under prepared.

All thoughts welcome. I'm looking for, perhaps, a simple solution in a complex situation without sacrificing good for fast and cheap. I can sacrifice fast... help me understand how I might?

Best,

[PaulClements]

Go 4K without a doubt, find ways to handle the post. Noise in darker scenes can be squeezed out by going 4K and bringing it down to 2K in post, plus you get 35mm fov/dof. 2K is only really good when you have the light, 4K and to a lesser extent 3K lets you get away with it a bit more. Imagine you're enlarging the grain on film by going 2K.

Cut in final cut pro and use Crimson (If it works - I don't know at the moment). Then import into Redcine.

Alternatively by then you could probably use adobe premiere and after effects or a host of other affordable solutions that will become available.

Paul

[brandon herman]

Well, i would strongly recommend shooting in 4k. You don't need to work with all that data in post, but it's there if you ever want it.

Especially in an environment where you know you'll be shooting at high ASA ratings, scaling down from 4k would give cleaner results. (To the best of my understanding.)

The real issue is not handling the 4k data in post, as it is the amount of memory you'll need on set and through post. However, most reports i hear say that it's not worth cutting back to 2k just to save a few dollars on external hard drives and CF cards. I don't know your budget, so that's something you'll need to determine yourself.

I have no experience with Color, but by the time you shoot, the Adobe plugins will be available, and After Effects offers good tools for a basic grade. The production bundle includes Synthetic Aperture's Color Finesse, which seems very good. It's slower than the dedicated systems, but significantly cheaper.

Here are some suggestions:

-most importantly: test test test
-get the fastest lens you can; maybe a T1.3
-try shooting at ASA 500, then keep going up until it seems unusable to you. From what I hear, Build 16 makes even 1600 pretty usable.
-can you use a slower shutter speed than 1/48th? maybe 1/24th, if the type of action in your story will allow for it....?
-again, shoot 4k. When you scale that down for delivery, I think it will seem much cleaner.
-and again: test test test

good luck!

[jbeale]

I don't want to crank the ASA too much.

Red's "native" ASA is around 320. Would you do a film shoot with ASA/ISO 320 film at night with limited lighting? I suppose it is possible, but the results would probably not be very satisfying.

As the others have pointed out, shooting 4k will give you significantly better image quality than 2k in low light, even after you downscale to 2k for your finish. That's because 4 source pixels are combined to make each 1 output pixel, which reduces noise significantly.

[Wade McDonald]

Color isn't so bad, actually. I've had very good luck with DPXs exported out of RedCine (via a Final Cut conform) and run through color. Just keep each timeline down to a max of 20 minutes (just think of it as a "reel") and it works great -- the only thing that is irritating is the render time. Working in 2k means that Color takes a long while to do its thing, but the output (I run a 4:4:4 dual link HDSDI out from my Kona from the DPX files) is great, just watch those scopes.

Still, having done some work recently with Scratch (special thanks to Dallas's 12Forward and Terry Wester) I really think it's the tool of choice working with RED. The conform there was much smoother, quicker, and the coloring was fast and allowed for real-time playback at full res (2k) which is really quite something.

That said, if you're budget limited and willing to trade a lot of time for savings, then I'd recommend Color wholeheartedly. Just make sure you find someone who knows what they're doing -- Coloring is a specialized art in and of itself.

Best of luck to you with your first RED project! I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

When in 2K you are using 1/4 of the sensor you MUST use 4K. The lenses also imply that your focus length will change, unless you use 16mm lenses you wont have wide angles. Moreover color isnt that accurate. Never shoot higher than 500 ISO unless you are willing to sacrifice some resolution for high noise levels. Use (if your budget allows it) master prime lenses. They are huge lenses, very luminous. So you have more f-stop room to move around. Looking forward to see your footage.

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

4K, T1,3 ,500ISO should be just fine at night in the city. Dont use a 1/24 or 1/25 shutter it looks awfull with that double motionblur

[Rocco Schult]

My suggestions:
1st: Will you have the budget to get fast lenses ? Base your decision on the lens. If you get T1.2 lenses for 16mm, go 2K. Don't make your decision depending on your storage. It was never cheaper and you won't shoot 20hrs/day. You can backup 7.5hrs for less than 400USD in costs of harddrives.
The camera doesn't get more light sensitive when you go 4K and noise keeps being noise. You might be able to reduce the overall subjective impression of it through downscaling, but it will still be highly visible if it is apparent in the first place.
2nd: Test your prey.
3rd: Scratch is probably the best and most efficient tool currently for work with RED footage.
If you need to go cheap, use one of the mentioned solutions or go Color. The toolset is good, just integration and stability make it a little difficult albeit being a little slow compared to high end systems.
Think about a HD workflow for finishing. Might ease up your and/or everybodies elses life in the end if film-out is not first priority.

[LawrenceDinkins]

If you are trying to save money, try using EX3 with 35mm adapter. It will give you good results at low budget.

[Pierce Cook]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. This is helping put things in perspective. With my post options seeming a little less concerning now, just trying to see about getting a hold of a 1.3.

I would love to get a run through scratch, but I feel more confident now even if we can't with this one.

Any other thoughts still welcome, but feeling good about this. Thanks again!