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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    The Gemini sensor is the closest to get 65mm and 8K. It has the best individual pixels of the sensors and, I'm not sure about the math here, but either it resolves at around 8K for a 65mm sensor, or it becomes a bit higher, able to downsample to a better 8K output.

    All in all, I've been proposing a Red 65mm for a long time. At the moment, with Arri and others momentum towards higher resolution and larger sensor sizes, it's a logical step for Red to create such a sensor as the highest resolution and size sensor in the world, with the best downsample available. Using the Gemini architecture for this would be the most logical if no other photosite tech is in development.

    Personally, I don't like squeezed pixels that much. I rather see a totally new sensor type with perfect 8K acquisition in 65mm than anything else. Larger photosites at 8K with 65mm would be a perfect balance in my opinion, between all the aspects of a CMOS sensor tech.
    Yes, for RED, it would be a very logical step to create a 65 mm camera with a resolution of 8 k. I think that would give a huge step in the business of RED. I hope that RED will do it.
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    I don't see a big market at the time for DCI-8k on the otherhand the 8k SUHD (7680x4320) is happening at the moment and the only camera at the moment that I know of that can produce true 8k SUHD output is the Sony UHC-8300 3 sensor camera https://cvp.com/product/sony_uhc-8300.

    With a bayer sensor you would need 7680x4320 ~ 33 green Mpixels to produce a true 8k RGB output. Since there are not many lenses(Otus and MasterPrime) that can handle the lp/mm of the 3.65 um helium pixel, the excellent Monstro sensor seems to be a good candidate to be scaled up to 65mm and get a perfect de-bayered 8k output.

    7680xsqrt2~10.9k and 4320xsqprt2~6.12k, with a pixel pitch of 5um the sensor would be around 54.5mm x 30.6 ~ 62.5mm image circle.

    Haven't seen an 8k DCI theater yet, but Samsung is already selling 8k tv's for around $5k.
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    I think that we’ll see all kinds of video options being made over the next decade. It started with adding video to DSLRs and now we have 360-degree specialty cameras, action cameras of all kinds, drones, and, yes, eventually we’re going to see medium format, large format, and panoramic video cameras. They might be specialty items or just higher end versions of what we have but no matter what kind of camera it is, video is almost always expected now.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Theatrical exhibitors are motivated to offer an experience you can't get at home. If that includes 8K, which seems likely at some point, it will require upgrading several elements of the DCI ecosystem. There are some DCP variants (B & B1) codified by SMPTE that go beyond the 250mb/s cap on IOP (interoperable) compliant DCPs, but even at 500mb/s, 8K HDR @24fps isn't supported.

    I fully expect a new school version of DCI that can support 8K at up to 60fps with HDR and 24 audio channels to manifest. Will it still rely on the JPEG2000 entropy codec? If not, then what? What would be the economics of going to a 1,500mb/s data stream - both for mastering and exhibition? Is there any codec that could provide enough image data at less than a gigabit/s to properly support 8K HDR 12bit @60fps content?

    UHD/4K to the home has been a slow road so far, but by 2020 I'd expect it to become the entry point for premium content. If so, how much investment would exhibitors be willing to make to go 8K? As of today, the cost of that move would be extremely difficult to ROI. When might that equation start making sense...

    Cheers - #19
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Theatrical exhibitors are motivated to offer an experience you can't get at home. If that includes 8K, which seems likely at some point, it will require upgrading several elements of the DCI ecosystem. There are some DCP variants (B & B1) codified by SMPTE that go beyond the 250mb/s cap on IOP (interoperable) compliant DCPs, but even at 500mb/s, 8K HDR @24fps isn't supported.

    I fully expect a new school version of DCI that can support 8K at up to 60fps with HDR and 24 audio channels to manifest. Will it still rely on the JPEG2000 entropy codec? If not, then what? What would be the economics of going to a 1,500mb/s data stream - both for mastering and exhibition? Is there any codec that could provide enough image data at less than a gigabit/s to properly support 8K HDR 12bit @60fps content?

    UHD/4K to the home has been a slow road so far, but by 2020 I'd expect it to become the entry point for premium content. If so, how much investment would exhibitors be willing to make to go 8K? As of today, the cost of that move would be extremely difficult to ROI. When might that equation start making sense...
    Without breaking any NDAs what I can say is every needle points to a:
    - 4K @ 120fps max
    - 8K @ 60fps max
    - 12-16bit (10-12 today)

    Future.

    I'll leave sound out of the mix, pun intended, for now :)

    I think for cinema they really need to look at data rate in the face of what is coming over 5G and Gigabit. Color and resolution are where cinema will still be able to really differentiate itself from home streaming offerings.

    As for the ATSC 3.0 standards, I'm behind the effort, but I fear they are lagging a bit far behind the line and likely can't fully compete with the streaming marketplace within two years. Though in our country it will be a moderate requirement and likely subsidized eventually. At that point a bigger issue will be at hand though.

    12bit display technology is happening in the R&D world aggressively at the moment. Getting a good 10bit display for a decent price truly happens next year and you will see offering from some unexpected corners.

    I'd chop off a toe for a decent DCI 8K monitor in the 30-40" range. Not my toe mind you, but somebody elses to pay for that thing. 8K goes single cable HDMI next year proper from what the crystal ball says. That's the biggy for consumers really. Then what drives them. The 8K stream box today is around $2500 USD. That will come down in price rapidly.
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Hope a single HDMI cable solution for 8K has enough bandwidth for better than 8 bit color depth...

    Love the Big Lebowski toe amputation reference.

    Cheers - #19
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Theatrical exhibitors are motivated to offer an experience you can't get at home. If that includes 8K, which seems likely at some point, it will require upgrading several elements of the DCI ecosystem. There are some DCP variants (B & B1) codified by SMPTE that go beyond the 250mb/s cap on IOP (interoperable) compliant DCPs, but even at 500mb/s, 8K HDR @24fps isn't supported.

    I fully expect a new school version of DCI that can support 8K at up to 60fps with HDR and 24 audio channels to manifest. Will it still rely on the JPEG2000 entropy codec? If not, then what? What would be the economics of going to a 1,500mb/s data stream - both for mastering and exhibition? Is there any codec that could provide enough image data at less than a gigabit/s to properly support 8K HDR 12bit @60fps content?

    UHD/4K to the home has been a slow road so far, but by 2020 I'd expect it to become the entry point for premium content. If so, how much investment would exhibitors be willing to make to go 8K? As of today, the cost of that move would be extremely difficult to ROI. When might that equation start making sense...
    You do realize that essentially all tentpole releases today are finished at 2K, don't you? Unless someone can magically extend the post schedules for these kind of pictures - and for the most part, those schedules are always getting shorter, not longer - there are significant technical and artistic barriers to getting 2500 VFX shots done at the quality level that's expected at anything higher than that in the near future. That's the reality for large scale productions, not what people here seem to think it is...
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  8. #18  
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    By the way, I'm thinking about buying an 8K monitor, and since the choice is not big, I look at a monitor from DELL or QLED 85-inch TV from Samsung 8k. Accordingly, I will work with 8K material from Monstro and will do Color Grading. What do you think is more appropriate? and is it worth it?
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  9. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Most View Post
    You do realize that essentially all tentpole releases today are finished at 2K, don't you? Unless someone can magically extend the post schedules for these kind of pictures - and for the most part, those schedules are always getting shorter, not longer - there are significant technical and artistic barriers to getting 2500 VFX shots done at the quality level that's expected at anything higher than that in the near future. That's the reality for large scale productions, not what people here seem to think it is...
    I'm from your side of things Mike generally speaking. And while I echo and acknowledge what tent pole style productions have done, especially before now, I don't think anybody can ignore productions that are having VFX work done in 4K at this point. And there has been 8K VFX work done for premiere productions even longer ago, though that's a rare and high budget bird.

    I agree from a logistics and deadline point of view the whole 2K and upscale thing has worked out, but that's clearly not what a good portion of the industry is doing these days. And that's growing very rapidly.

    It is a peculiar world where one hour dramas with tighter turnaround than features are handling 4K VFX, yet the typically 3-18 month post VFX schedule can't handle it on features. That literally won't be able to go on much longer.

    I'm in no way disagreeing with you, but it's pretty interesting to see where, what, and why a lot of those barriers exist and where they have been broken through. Especially in 2018.

    Even at my time at R&H as well as doing work for ILM, DD, Weta, etc throughout the 2000s the vast majority was 2K, but there were jobs that came through and worked on in 4K every now and again as well as a smidge higher resolution. That was a decade ago.

    Yes, 2500 shots is a lot to handle through large pipelines with high resolution assets, but major houses can and have been doing it occasionally. Storage and bandwidth are not where they were a long while ago, same can be said for full raster rendering. We're not exactly waiting a day per frame these days.

    I would question hard for larger productions at a minimum not working in 4K within the next two years. Very hard.

    Smaller houses are gaining ground in this way as it's been easier for them to integrate higher resolution workflows into a studio of sub-200 people. Beyond that, the big houses are going to need to adapt and studios shortly are going to demand it for future work. It's already happening in a rather staggered way.
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

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    Red Dragon
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Big surface area makes more sense for film. I think we're trying to impose old paradigms onto new ones. Who among you would prefer the Alexa 65 (which delivers a fine image) over the Helium or Monstro? You either want progress in digital or you don't.

    Of course, a sensor that's too small makes no sense - look at how awful GoPros are. OTOH Apple has some magic going on with the 2018 iPhones. We'll see.
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