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  1. #1 Strange call from post exec 
    So this was strange:

    Tonight I got a call from my UPM on an upcoming studio film. I am planning on shooting either Monster or DXL2. She received a call from the studio head of post asking if instead of shooting 8K could I shoot "some" shots in 4K or 6K and only the VFX heavy and re-po setups in 8K. He is worried about the amount of data.

    So I will have a conversation with him and explain that the format choice barring money is the choice of the DP. And that Monstro at 8K 2:1 with 5:1 compression yields less data than Alexa 3.4K Open Gate Raw Codex. On a 512GB card the Red gets 36 minutes and Alexa gets 29 minutes. This is NOT a Red versus Alexa discussion. It is the misconception that 8K generates an unwieldy amount of data.

    BTW the last 2 films for this studio were Alexa Open Gate (Bumblebee & Sonic) and going to Codex Arriraw and never any discussion about amount of data from studio post execs.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Nov 2011
    Yeah it's a perception thing. And this sucks. Best of luck.

    They are probably assuming the K's work the same (ie Arriraw and Red raw scale the same - they don't).
    Nick Morrison
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  3. #3  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
    Los Angeles
    Much of that I've seen in the last few years beyond what you've mentioned Peter is people thinking you need to go "8K throughout*.

    That usually leads to some conversation regarding filming 8K at 5:1 or 8:1 and downsampling to whatever VFX plate resolution is targeted that is appropriate to the delivery resolution.

    Last night, one of key points made regarding 8K and data rates is that it's not heavy at all. I mean at 5:1 you're getting about an hour of footage per 1 TB. 8:1 about an 1 hour and 40 minutes.

    That's really not a huge data footprint at all. Especially for a studio driven production.

    If you ever need it, load up my framesToDataRate tool in your browser.

    Here's a fun example of a project:
    Single Camera, 8K FF 5:1, 24fps, with 2K dailies - 2 hours of footage a day

    I mean, with ProRes 422 HQ 2K dailies and that level of REDCODE RAW, that's about 2TB a day, 10TB a week. I always like to pad about 18% of shooting time per day whenever it's scripted, just in case.

    People really don't know until you show them.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

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  4. #4  
    Senior Member
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    Perhaps its also about decode/processing time and not just about storage size?
    Noah Yuan-Vogel |
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member David Collard's Avatar
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    Mar 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lyons Collister, ASC View Post
    It is the misconception that 8K generates an unwieldy amount of data.
    There were some numbers discussed not long ago wherein it stated that the current Red codec was 40% more efficient than previous versions,
    mathematically meaning that the 8K processing was around the same amount of processing as 6K. (Graham Nattress knows for sure.)

    Plus, the latest Nvidia solutions for Red 8K are simply game changing in its ability to process and view data in real time.
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  6. #6  
    Phil, We have already agreed that post and final VFX will be 2K but I agree that it is perception and I just need to explain.

    I will let you and this forum the outcome of my conversation.
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  7. #7  
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    Dec 2014
    Just tell them about max data rates - 300 MB/s is 300 MB/s.
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Melbourne AU
    It's not an unfair question, for sure. I would not expect for executives or producers to know the details of camera systems. Reputation lags behind fact. Why else do you think that Arri's 4K upsampling 'upgrade' to the Alexa isn't laughed out of town?

    BTW I wonder if this person realizes how much data the Alexa 65 produces - that's a 6K camera, just like he asked for. ;-)
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  9. #9  
    If one wants to fully utilize the advantage of Monstro and DXL, higher compression is a limitation.

    That route, prioritising pixel count and disk space, trades overall quality and relies on computative compromise.
    Wavelet compression brings more choices between usage and priorities but it is not without price and that price affects:

    a) texture appearance and consistency
    b) grading range and finesse
    c) generation loss

    This is a less of problem for TV due to screen size, it is a larger problem for cinema. Literally as well.

    So I wouldn't rely on higher compression as advantage.
    Not for larger budget projects.

    Analog > Camera feel optimization
    Digital > Camera performance optimization


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  10. #10  
    Had the same on a 10x45 minute series. It took the producers about 3 months to actually understand that 6k red or 8k red gives the same amount of data. Simply put you need to shoot with the same bit rate to remain quality. 8k does not need as much bit rate per pixel as 6k and the card only go so and so fast. I could argue that higher bit rates are needed at 6k.

    Example 10:1 8k is better then 6:1 6k.

    The guys I worked with told me to include drives in my budget. First I did not add so many, and nervous as they where they told me to up the cost. In the end they used way less discspace than what they thought the would.

    Prores proxy LT 2 in camera so there is no transcoding need for offline editing. Then r3d on the side, I usually up the bit rate at night / low light and save some on the bit rate when light is good and or not much happening in the scene. Works well.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
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