Thread: CES 2019 Report

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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I understand you are very much on the AMD front and that's cool. But understand that RT and the tech is about games that optimize for them. They are working on it because they don't have the hardware done. It makes sense the the newer lower by 1-tier card hits up to the previous Titan V in particular on Battlefield V. I'm mostly not interested in gaming as this is a forum dedicated to motion picture professionals who might game in their down time.
    Not really, we only have 1 AMD system and around 50 intel computers with most of the time integrated GPU's or NVidia GPU's. But we are always on a tight budget. The only game I play on a computer is solitaire, but an article on the internet passed by about RTX2080ti vs. Titan V https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/nv...-cores),4.html that made me wonder what benefit of those RT cores is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Here's everything I know.

    I have yet to test the RTX 2060 as it was just announced, but on the notebook and PC side what I can say for sure is:

    - workstations = Intel Core i9-7900X (10-core) or (Intel Core i9-9900K) + RTX2080 - 8K FF 5:1 full debayer realtime playback
    - notebook = Intel Core i9-8950HK (6-core) RTX2080 MaxQ - 8K 1/2 debayer realtime playback, 6K full debayer realtime playback
    When this is what we can expect,then they not only do the decoding on the RTX but also speeded up the debayer(while decoding) on the RTX2080 (in resolve with a i9-9980xe the RTX 2080 stocks at around 23 fps de-bayer only).
    Those notebook numbers are very impressive and super useful for onsite(first check).

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I'm only talking about stuff I've had hands on experience with. The material they had from me was 8K REDCODE RAW 5:1 from a narrative piece and actually could handle 30fps time base as well. And they had a variety of 6K flavors.

    And again, the AMD playback you are echoing isn't what the new optimization is at all. You are talking about a "push play and buffer" versus how exactly the new GPU Decode works, which still buffers, but is wildly different in terms of seek and latency. Don't sweat it. AMD will get there though. It's just not happening now. RED wants this tech everywhere I'm certain.
    No, those are real-time playback figures in Resolve at fullres premium with our own test footage(10 minutes) from the Helium we rented a while ago(no buffering) the cpu(2950x 4.2 GHz all-core) is sweating(95..100% FF 8k.R3D 7:1 25 fps) and the GPU is a reference model (VEGA FE air). Our 1950x (4 GHz all-core) maxed out at 8:1 real-time playback(2 VEGA's FE on water).

    I think AMD will take another route, their current VEGA FE and upcoming VEGA 7 are fast enough for de-bayering(and have enough memory to do more than just de-bayering) and their upcoming Threadripper's will be more than fast enough to handle the decoding.

    Time will tell what the best solution is. We at least have a choice and competition these days and that's a very good thing.
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  2. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    The true goal is getting into the realm of something that can handle ProRes 8K playback, but again, we are ways away from it.
    The true goal Prores 8K ? For who ?

    What would be the benefit of having a Corporatosaurus Parasiticus Troll codec with gigawatts per second...with raw and 12bit 444 h.265 ?
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    The true goal Prores 8k ? For who ?

    What would be the benefit of having a Corporatosaurus Parasiticus Troll codec with gigawatts per second...with raw and 12bit 444 h.265 ?
    Similar to how some of the Atmos devices have been useful simplified 4K ProRes playback, often unseen, a similar box would be useful for 8K ProRes playback for those who need such things. Not just trade shows, but hotels and other special exhibition as well as studio use. It would also save me from building custom playback boxes for such things.

    Don't worry, H.265 is the streaming target until AM1 drops in about a year. But ProRes is extremely common place around the world for delivery and playback, as I'm sure you know.
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  4. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Similar to how some of the Atmos devices have been useful simplified 4K ProRes playback, often unseen, a similar box would be useful for 8K ProRes playback for those who need such things. Not just trade shows, but hotels and other special exhibition as well as studio use. It would also save me from building custom playback boxes for such things.

    Don't worry, H.265 is the streaming target until AM1 drops in about a year. But ProRes is extremely common place around the world for delivery and playback, as I'm sure you know.
    I'd say Prores is doomed with wider adoption of hardware supported more efficient delivery codecs.
    And Corporatosaurus Totalitaricus is aware of that, hence Prores Raw.
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  5. #15  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    I'd say Prores is doomed with wider adoption of hardware supported more efficient delivery codecs.
    I disagree wholeheartedly as ProRes as well as DNxHR are standards for capture and general mezzanine use around the globe. Literally thousands of things are shot in native ProRes, much to my objection, but water flows towards the easiest path. Not to mention newer versions of both in the works that do a bit more than what they do today. You've got an easy decade of ProRes left in the tank for sure. Likely some wild other codec will pop up in there. Was hoping for Cineform to gain more traction, but alas the water flows.

    10 and 12-bit isn't the end for these codecs.

    ProRes Raw has little do do with various versions of the mezzanine style codec itself.

    There is a massive different between delivery codecs and mezzanine codecs in how they are used throughout the industry. Not mainly people are pumping out H.265 dailies when you can push out ProRes LT or HQ for instance. Also, now with more Windows rendering options for ProRes I'd actually expect to see more of it, not less. Come NAB 2019, likely even more so.
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

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  6. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    There is a massive different between delivery codecs and mezzanine codecs in how they are used throughout the industry.
    Mezzanine codec is a remnant of HD era when uncompressed/RAW workflows were ball and chain, so you had to have another codec in the middle of the workflow. Mezzanine is held in UHD by industry standardization, habit and lack of lower bitrate higher quality standardized codecs. I'd say that is about to change.
    RAW workflow has already gained momentum and the last limitation is crunching wavelets in 8K. Prores XQ is already tasking for 4K with data sizes in the range of raw. Typical larger workflows use HD proxies for offline anyway.

    Having the options of 16 bit raw for highest quality priority and 12 bit RGB 444 Intra-frame HEVC (for example) tunable down to 10 bit 4:2:2 with various compression levels, makes a third option in the middle with bombed data management completely redundant.


    According to Prores whitepaper:

    Prores XQ 4K 24p = 1697 Mb/s = 212 MB/s = 764 GB/hr
    Prores XQ 4K 60p = 4242 Mb/s = 530 MB/s = 1609 GB/hr

    Prores QX 8K 24p = 6788 Mb/s = 848 MB/s = 3055 GB/hr
    Prores XQ 8k 60p = 16,970 Mb/s = 2121 MB/s = 7636 GB/hr



    According to some leaks, Sony is working on XEVC which supports 12 bit 444 and covers from 8K down to practically lossless version for HD/2K. With 240 Mbs.
    The math for UHD and especially 8K in the context of data management and budgeting makes platform-limited codec seem not so sexy any more. To the ones who pay especially. What would be the benefit of using Prores over higher efficiency high quality codec with lower bitrate, epecially if it's already hardware supported in computing AND presentation devices ?

    Prores RAW also makes mezzanine redundant. It's a Corporatosaurus' totalitaristic attempt of expanding industry reach in acquisition, for increase in control, leeching and authority in production domain.
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    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member PatrickFaith's Avatar
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    Great review, but I am just not feeling ces this year. My reality in California is power has been sporadic, my internet speed is crap, and their are all these home restrictions coming down the pipe on power/water use. I was in Utah a lot this year, where everything was either 10 or a solid 1g, so the constant crap experience I get in ca has nothing to do with tech. I never personally watch anything on a screen larger the 15 inches, and whenever I watch things publicly/groups the content is always 1080p or 2k dcp. So I here about 8k, and I'm like "whatever". My favorite tech thing is my hydrogen phone, but the post process for 4K 3D is still tough. I virtually watch no US tv or films because the stories are crap. I did some of the original information theory for 5g, I swear no one explains it correctly in the rags. It seems the entire XR industry is depressed - my vive/oculus/magicleap/applexr sits unused. Seems like CES has enterily missed the point as far as I'm concerned.
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