Thread: Defending RED, Camera (Brand) Wars, Shot On What?!

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  1. #11  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    We spent 1.5 years 100% of our income to fund our first Epic and naturaly everyone thought we were crazy. Now we have made the money many times over and developed so much as cinematographers. And just had so much fun!

    Every time I get curious about another camera system, I compare a few screen grabs and I instantly go back to Red (not exaggerating!). Our Helium is just such a big step up. There is a bit of noise but it is rarely a problem. It is also wonderful that you can get so nice stills out of the camera. Looking forward to testing monstro more as well.

    For the future with Red I hope we see dual iso at 8k implemented and more slow motion, but it is pretty darn close to a "perfect" camera. I think the ultra bright screen just moved it one step closer to perfection.

    Always looking forward, never looking back after going with Red.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin Stewart View Post
    Phil, with all your efforts towards Red, I'm surprised you still haven't been hired by Red, you seem way more convinced than most of their employees ;-)
    Phil is open and most people like that, RED is seen as a closed cult in the industry. When RED wants to become more commercially succesfull they have to change their attitude (the camera's are good). I'm not saying that RED's attitude is wrong, it's just not helping them commercially.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    Phil, there's no need to defend RED, I think most professional people know it's a great camera.
    If you are watching facebook or other sites you can only eat displeasure, and anger, in seeing so much ignorance. This is true sadness.
    Anyway, it's time to focus on the new DMSC3 camera body;)
    It's still getting a better system. Dont do DSMC3 any time soon. We just got the Teradek DSMC2 module and it works so goooood. The Teradek integration is great for EF and PL Lenses. Doing a new body means buying everything new for our cams...and wont work in the beginning as before. DSMC1 to DSMC2 was hurting very much for our workflow on set, when not everything we needed was available or just didnt make the switch to the new system (Red THC EF lens control).


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  4. #14  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Just a thought. Imagine if we could have the same form format in DSMC2 but instead upgrade some of the tech. I just want better slow motion. Being able to see focus better would also be a big thing (zooming in 200% or outputting a 4k image)
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    Well said Phil!
    We don’t have to defend our RED cameras!

    There’s always a gimmick/fad that people run to. You choose the camera that works best for your needs and the project-just like lenses. And yet lenses don’t get the amount of hate out there online like some digital cinema cameras get.
    I’ve been shooting RED for years and love everything about it: r3d workflow, DR, ergonomics, color science, etc. Sure Arri has a more aesthetically pleasing color science, but RED is more accurate and DR is just as good if not better! Sure I primarily use my Helium, yes there’s a bit of a green shift to the image-it’s nothing that can’t be easily fixed even in camera with a LUT like what Omeneo offers if your really in a time crunch!

    Since IPP2 that improved my RED 1 footage from over 10 years ago! Not to mention it’s still 4K! Can’t think of any camera which could or has futureproofed/improved the image for that long if ever!

    And like Manfred said, we don’t need DSMC3 anytime soon. Especially with this unified system we have now, and accessories/modules which could be configured to any shooting style/need. Definitely hope that future generations all the modules would be completely backwards compatible though!
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Chris McKechnie's Avatar
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    Nicely written there Phil.

    From my perspective, RED pushes the industry forward, at a very fast rate, and most camera manufacturers decide whether to play catch up, or that resolution isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Other companies value other things more - DR, image aesthetic, noise floor, color reproduction, etc. I applaud RED, but at the same time, have been incredibly frustrated with how many cameras they've updated/released recently, as it's devaluing the brand as a whole. Slashing prices and announcing new cams/unified bodied versions so frequently, it's making their current line of customers - all of us here - feel like we're grasping at straws. It's gone from the simple - Epic/Scarlet, to an insane amount of options now, which only confuses us as well as our "end clients," thus making our job more difficult - trying to explain which specific body we have and what resolutions, frame rates, etc., it's capable of. I know they are trying to simplify again, with the unified DSMC2 body, but it's still overly complex with too many cameras in the food chain. I know cameras evolve through the years, and new ones come out, but typically in the higher end cinema arena, it shouldn't be as often as it has been with RED.

    I think it's also a difficult market for RED. While leading/pushing the industry, at the same time, they have also been trying to play catch-up to Arri. Everyone goes go-go-ga-ga over the Alexa skin tones and dynamic range, which is one of the many reasons why it's one of the most requested cameras for any production. On a wide-range of those productions, a good chunk of them are still acquiring in 2K pro res, which just goes to show that, yea - resolution is great, but most people prefer the overall image look more.

    I think RED's best camera to date has been Dragon (never shot on Monstro - so maybe that one's better). It had the most natural skin-tone reproduction (even better with IPP2), good highlight rolloff, and it was incredibly stable. I think RED got lost along with way, and focused on resolution (because frankly, that's what RED has been known for) as opposed to building something that made the overall image, look more like film. With the onslaught of ultra high resolution capture and most content being viewed online/social media and on your smartphone, brands and agencies are looking at how they can "degrade" the image, because that's what gives it character and sets their brand a part. We want organic, texture, noise, etc. It feels more authentic and real. As opposed to the overly digital/sharp look, which to me, looks much more like video than film.

    To me, RED seems to be doing quite a bit of back-peddling, realizing that resolution isn't everything, and most people are fine with 4K/5K acquisition. If RED created a mini monstro (I know a lot of people call the gemini a mini monstro - but it's not - at least in my opinion), with a 4K maybe 5K full frame sized sensor, and really focused on DR, skin tones, and a non-uniform noise pattern - I think they'd have a real winner.

    RED will always be a leader, but I think if RED refocuses their priorities - less on resolution, and more on image texture - they'll find themselves at the top, and once again, in high demand.
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  7. #17  
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    Chris I totally agree
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  8. #18  
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    The past few years have seen a mind boggling amount of new sensors from Red and I think that's hurting their choice with Cinematographers. I personally think RED needs to work on one sensor for a while and really focus on color fidelity and dynamic range, now that everything is 4K and up.

    Arri cameras will dominate because the color and highlights look the best, obviously that's subjective, but the camera choices for big films don't lie. For them to still dominate with a sensor almost a decade old by just increasing it's physical size should say something.

    Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this, but I think Red needs to thin out the camera line to just "Monstro" or something, with one choice in OLPF and just focus on how to get the best colors out of it.

    It'd be interesting to see someone put up the amount of image options there are with Bodies / Sensors / OLPF , each one looks drastically different. I've been shooting on Red since the Epic-M and maybe I'm just finding myself in the wrong camp in the past year, but I'm totally overwhelmed with the SKUs.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member andrewhake's Avatar
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    "What camera did you use to shoot this!?!"

    "What lights did you use?!?!!?"

    "What mics did you use to record this!?!!??"

    "What renderer did you use!?!"

    "What editing software did you use!??!?!"

    "What DAW do you use to make music!?!?!?!"

    "What pencil do you use your drawings are amazing!??!!"

    "What brushes do you use your paintings are amazing!?!?!"


    Stop.
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member andrewhake's Avatar
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    Another thing worth mentioning. Just because a film made it into a festival, or even into production, doesn't mean it is any good.
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