Thread: Was Jinnimag Thread Removed?

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  1. #101  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash Worth View Post
    Not sure I follow what you are saying. Isn't the whole issue they just rehoused SSD's and not even the best rated ones? Where is the engineering in that? In terms of the money spent to develop the RedMags? You mean the enclosure? That's very little design.
    A key thing a lot of people are not thinking about at all when discussing this is the good deal of stress testing and R&D to even choose the media. It wasn't like one day they woke up and said "dude we're going to just toss this MSATA drive into an enclosure and call it a day". At the time MSATA was fairly new, there were a host of directions to go with the media. And yes the metal enclosure is even a stress tested thing. I know for a fact based on some posts here that there's various torque, weight, temperature, and other rigorous tests done to the cameras and media. I think Jarred posted one of the cameras frozen and even iced over in their temperature chamber that still booted. That's outside of the data rate tests to ensure non-stop recording without buffer issues, which the cameras still have warnings for, but I haven't seen them in many years.

    And yes, the firmware in question with the previous thread has everything to do with what's going on within the camera and how it's writing data to the card. The various error codes we've seen when things go bad allude to the time spent to communicate with the media and do various checks and logging of issues. In fact, occasionally you'll get a warning that you should likely even securely format your media if things are segmented or some sort of firmware update recommends you do so.

    Yes, on the surface it looks pretty cut and dry on what's inside the enclosure, but pretty much everybody is overlooking what it took to even put that stuff in there.

    We'll never really know what RED's bottom line is on the media and the profits desired, but all of this plus the labor and support that comes with it has a cost associated with it outside of the base cost of components.


    In the mix of all of this is the weirdness of technology evolving, red colored REDMAGs to indicate newer faster high speed cards over the OG black ones, larger capacity/faster ones being made, and the eventual move to the MINI-MAG form factor with the newer drives and it appears that there might have been some newer media overlap. I cracked open a few of my older REDMAGs out of curiosity (like in 2014 I think) and they are older drives compared to the stuff in the current MINI-MAGs. Also the media bay going from SATA 2.X to SATA 3.X, which we know even based on the older media readers versus the newer ones.

    Just my POV really, the guy making these videos is mostly weaponizing these concepts it seems to highlight just the components in there and none of the work that even lead up to the design of the mags nor any of the history of media standards like SATA advancing. And just on the design side, you'll notice the mags don't fall out of the camera unless you are hitting some pretty notable G-force torques or dropping it from a decent height.

    There's engineering going on both on the hardware and software side of things. It's just not the POV being put forward by the individual pushing out the viral stuff. And mostly this is just exactly what he's after it seems.


    More or less why I'm just beating the drum and rhythm to the tune of tell RED their media costs too much or want different drives in there or want 3rd party media or whatever. They'll take that feedback. The viral stuff leading into harassment and borderline stalking behavior is pretty much never going to be listened to, within this community it led to very heated debates with insults being slung left and right, that's not something that should be happening and at it's core is part of what this guy wants to happen. And as I mentioned in a previous thread, there's still posts here on REDUSER where people cracked open the mags around 2012 and knew what was in there, even some older images and discussion online can be found, this is just being brought back up due to whatever history Jinni and RED have, which is all publicly view-able in terms of the timeline of legal activities between Washington through California and who went after who first. As a moderator, this again happened before. The only thing that has changed is the jilted angle of somebody pretty pissed off at RED and looking to clearly have a negative impact on their company and there's clearly more cameras out there.

    And to the credit of Cinema 5D, they went to the source to get the official word without slashing around blindly with skepticism, conspiracy theories, and whatever. And yet again, I'll just note from the previous thread, all of this stuff has gone through rigorous FCC teardowns, NASA, and military scrutiny about the nomenclature and core components. If there was house worth burning down we would have heard it from a different source.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake blackstone View Post
    Actually, as I understand it, the first camera using compressed RAW (Cineform) codec was Silicon Imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Imaging
    The first 4k digital camera was Dalsa Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalsa_Origin
    And R3D is based on existing JPEG2000 wavelet compression. It was readily apparent until Red started encrypting R3Ds.
    So, basically, Red combined all three elements together, patented it, which became the basis of Red cameras.
    So, I don't think, there was a technological breakthrough. It was probably a breakthrough more on the engineering and PR front.
    Ehhh... YES.
    And since Hollywood is in the US, the patents are valid.
     

  3. #103  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Kudos to Phil for pointing out some of the many steps involved in creating a reliable camera media ecosystem for professional production usage. Recording up to 960GBs at 300MB/s, in a small and durable form factor, without dropping frames, might seem trivial today - but when dev started in 2011 or so...

    Cheers - #19
     

  4. #104  
    Senior Member Christopher S Johnson's Avatar
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    It really bums me out that we somehow get sidetracked into talking about wavelet compression instead of using this very unique opportunity to figure out as a community how we think Reduser should be moderated.

    I don’t think it was right to nuke the thread. It could have been locked, with the offending material deleted, and the rest of the very useful information left in tact. I’ve been following this from the first post, and the only thing I’m certain of is there are a lot of differing opinions. But we can’t make any progress discussing those opinions if we have to be battling censorship as well.
     

  5. #105  
    Senior Member Donald MJ Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher S Johnson View Post
    It really bums me out that we somehow get sidetracked into talking about wavelet compression instead of using this very unique opportunity to figure out as a community how we think Reduser should be moderated.

    I donít think it was right to nuke the thread. It could have been locked, with the offending material deleted, and the rest of the very useful information left in tact. Iíve been following this from the first post, and the only thing Iím certain of is there are a lot of differing opinions. But we canít make any progress discussing those opinions if we have to be battling censorship as well.
    The laughable thing is this thread is on the exact same topic. Offending posts in the earlier thread could easily have been deleted. The video link removed. You know...it could have been moderated.

    They hope memories are short.
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  6. #106  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    I'm cool with that Chris. I might go back and edit out about half that thread as it diverged into a bit of chaos which resulted in bans and investigating a couple people who were not as they seemed. Modding is a fairly thankless act and time consuming, combined with the additional nonsense of not wanting touch this topic for reasons more or less highlighted in the videos released to date you'll notice it's been a policing ghost town and even some professionals have vanished from the grounds, which is not what this community is all about.

    Truthfully, the second I was dragged into this very literally on my 40th birthday I didn't have a lot of patience or time to tend with it differently. But at this point it thankfully appears more level headed conversation is taking place (I hope) without the insults, attacks, and accusations. Though at a certain point just the fact that the thread was so big and people didn't read pages of discussion was adding to the problems. Things were repeated a bunch, a growing crowd didnt even know RED made an official statement and were theorycrafting when literally four posts before a statement was made, you can understand some of the issues with growing misinformation which led to worse interactions.

    I'm a patient dude full of zen, but we're not going to support the POV directed attacks as the general content ended up more directed that way. Arguably, when should be closing all of these threads, but at the same time I personally see some benefit to some of the potential conversation despite the likely more correct urge to literally not host this conversation here.

    I'm just a mod, if anything more needs to occur it will happen or people who own this site will step in or tell mods what needs to transpire. Personally this has somehow already effected my professional life and I very much can't have that. REDuser is more or less a hobby community that I care about, my clients are a different world entirely. It's a lot to ask, but you'll likely never look at this from my perspective, especially in regard to social media, email, and PMs regarding all of this outside of professional ramifications. I'm doing my best in a time where people are showing their worst in a usually positive filmmaking community. The hard part is with that focus of these pieces being aimed to do harm outside of just information, others are also being dragged into the fray and at some point it's important to step in. We extended far past that point. Way too far.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  7. #107  
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    Please consider a functionality to limit the number of posts an user can make in a day within the same thread.
     

  8. #108  
    Senior Member Audy Erel's Avatar
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    Some saved pages including the last page from the deleted thread can be accessed via the Internet Archive Wayback Machine ..
    SCARLET-W #004760
     

  9. #109  
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    As an ex moderator, I am totally on the page when it comes to upholding respect among post-ers. That is without question the priority of every mod. It also underlines the idea of open communication by providing limits, so that people are free to express their opinion without fear of someone with ruffled feathers just going off on them in inappropriate ways. That said, the danger is that mods can inadvertently become the mouthpiece for a manufacturer, especially when the potential conflict of interest by a manufacturer/forum sponsor is so ever present on a forum like this one. In my mind this issue is also at the core of the problem and probably should be discussed as well. I don't know what the answer to that one is. I think Phil does an excellent job of striking a balance in this kind of conundrum and provides a depth of knowledge/historical context which is rare. I honestly don't know how he has enough hours in the day to do his real life job, mod here and have a personal life.
    Last edited by C. Burkhart; 07-24-2019 at 11:50 PM.
     

  10. #110  
    Senior Member Josh Birch's Avatar
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    Aren't Jinni Mag contradicting themselves? They say the Mini Mags cost X amount of money to make but they are still making a huge mark up?
    Cinematographer, London
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