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  1. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    When I refer to rating the camera at a higher ISO, I know this also means subsequently stopping down or adding ND to compensate for the "increased sensitivity" (by digitally raising the gain) a light meter thinks you have when you set it for that higher ISO.

    It's a 2-step process. Those two things together do, in fact, let you capture more highlight detail.
    It's a two step process unless you just stop down on same ISO rating. In which case it's a one step process.

    Which doesn't do anything whatsoever to the property of highlight lattitude in either case. You just stopped down. That's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    I can't seem to ever do that with you because you tend to ignore context in favor of strict, literal interpretations.
    Since the internets is filled with nonsense such as "higher ISO gives you more DR in highlights", "downscaling increases DR", etc. combined with wishful thinking and copy/paste mentality and as a result some get to grade & fix underexposed imagery coming from high end ISO 800 cameras in 2019, cameras otherwise capable of outstanding imagery, accurate, non-romanticised interpretations of technical matters, although understandably frustrating to go through (and repeat), are a rational thing to do, in order to reduce and hopefully avoid the ever-emerging misinterpretations of imaging tools which lead to their missuse.

    That's a long sentence. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    I'm talking about before clipping occurs. Sometimes tail lights, for example, are only clipped at the bulb (or not not at all, until the brakes are applied) but the rest of the light appears pink instead of the saturated red it actually is.
    Tonal consistency depends on sensor, base colour science and transformation and can be improved in latter stages, to an extent dependent on properties of the preceeding ones.

    For the most part, that shouldn't be a problem today.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    Will HDR show a less steep roll-off to white (more color saturation) up until the point it clips at the bulb position (if it does at all, before the brakes are applied) than when viewing in SDR?
    Imagine a tail light red orb with bright red ring on the outside and white middle where the sensor clipped and there is no tonal data.

    Provided that transformations to SDR and HDR don't deviate tonality nor clip or clamp gamut, SDR will show the whole signal extreme at a lower luminance and saturation level, HDR at higher. I.e. with HDR the same harsh clip will just slam you in the face harder.

    To make the transition to clip softer you cannot add the data which is not there to fill in the gap. Display max luminance and saturation doesn't affect that. That only shows you what you already have at different light values.
    You can only take out from the "top", expanding the area from nothing to something inwards through image manipulation, which has to go down, not up, so consequently will reduce the saturation of the tail light to a wider range.

    You can't have both the saturation on that signal peak and a smooth transition, it is either/or. To keep both the saturation on that luminance level and smoothness to clip, clipping point has to be "further", which is achievable only if you have more DR captured on the top. So, you need more DR not just to prevent the clipping at some point , you need it for a transition up to that point as well . Captured DR, not display DR.

    The same thing goes for shadows, and some stops have to be reserved for the toe, like they do for the shoulder in highlights, to have that natural transition and proper density left for contrast distribution. The more you force the image manipulation towards the extremes the reduced the smoothness of a rolloff.

    Rolloff smothness and tonal consistency are a solvable part, how far you get to keep the colour and detail depends primarily on the sensor.
     

  2. #212  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    (...)

    Um, unless I've totally misunderstood what middle gray is and how to determine it, this is wrong, at least in terms of photography. If this were true, middle gray would be different for every camera and light meters would be useless because there would be no standard frame of reference.

    Here's a handy formula I picked up somewhere. In order to determine "proper" exposure, or middle gray: 100 ASA @ 24fps @ 180 degree shutter @ 100 fc = f2.8. You can derive every other exposure by halving and doubling the various values. This has nothing to do with the midpoint of a camera's individual dynamic range.(...)
    Hm, you're talking about determining the proper exposure then all of a sudden you go with 100 ASA...
    No, we don't know the ASA, we're yet to determine it. Why would one choose 100 ASA as a base (put your gray card here!) if everything gets scorched just two stops higher, and at the same time there's some 14 stops to play with down in the basement?
    No, you go with 6400. Get yourself 8 stops over and under.
     

  3. #213  
    Senior Member Brian Boyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    Hm, you're talking about determining the proper exposure then all of a sudden you go with 100 ASA...
    No, we don't know the ASA, we're yet to determine it. Why would one choose 100 ASA as a base (put your gray card here!) if everything gets scorched just two stops higher, and at the same time there's some 14 stops to play with down in the basement?
    No, you go with 6400. Get yourself 8 stops over and under.
    WTF? Is it me or is it him? It’s him, isn’t it?

    Dude, I didn’t come up with the formula. It is what it is. It’s helpful, say, if you don’t have a light meter on you but you know the photometric data of the lights you’re using at several distances.

    Or, maybe you have your meter and took your readings but you don’t have it on you at the moment you decide to change settings or you don’t feel like pulling it out or the battery died.

    This formula gets you to a proper exposure at f2.8. From there, you can figure out the rest.

    Instead of trolling me, grab your camera and your meter and test it. It actually works.
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  4. #214  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    I'll make a new thread about this is as it's grossly off topic, but you'll love it. Or hate it. Are make pancakes with it.
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  5. #215  
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    Although the subject currently discussed always makes for an interesting read there's a part of me that would like to see part of the discussion circle back to Komodo.

    Here are some thoughts. Komodo is a new camera design in a body significantly smaller than what RED has ever done before. People expect S35 or even hope for FF which as we know with current high quality sensor tech requires a lot of power and generates a lot of heat and needs beefy cooling.

    This new camera design being smaller means smaller heatsink which has to mean less heat generated which then also means lower power draw (also nobody expects having to hook up V mounts for adequate run time on a camera of this size)

    If RED can keep this sensor specs in line with the DSMC2s in terms of color science and DR, and be in line with expected resolution and frame rates compared to cameras such as the Zcam, it would then mean RED has developed new sensor tech and electronics design that can capture high quality cinema imageries in a package that draws less juice generates less heat and requires less cooling.

    This to me is quite significant and pretty exciting. And it also makes me wonder about the future and how these new thermal & power improvements may be implemented in larger upcoming DSMC3 cameras/sensors that could draw less power run cooler and be quieter !!
     

  6. #216  
    Hmmm... RED action cam???
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  7. #217  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I'll make a new thread about this is as it's grossly off topic, but you'll love it. Or hate it. Are make pancakes with it.
    Makes sense, just tell me the thread title and I'll bring the maple syrup...

    Cheers - #19
     

  8. #218  
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    First off, I aint him.
    Second off, I don't believe in trolls. Sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    WTF? Is it me or is it him? It’s him, isn’t it?

    Dude, I didn’t come up with the formula.
    That's what I'm worried about.

    It is what it is. It’s helpful, say, if you don’t have a light meter on you but you know the photometric data of the lights you’re using at several distances.

    Or, maybe you have your meter and took your readings but you don’t have it on you at the moment you decide to change settings or you don’t feel like pulling it out or the battery died.

    This formula gets you to a proper exposure at f2.8. From there, you can figure out the rest.

    Instead of trolling me, grab your camera and your meter and test it. It actually works.
    Dang...
    It sure works with 100 ASA film, no one ever said it wouldn't, but
    what if you use film you don't know the ASA of? How do you determine if it's a 50, 100, 250, 500 ASA or in between, whatever? What do you do?

    Phil, feel free to chime in!
     

  9. #219  
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    No HDMI, hopefully SDI
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  10. #220  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Loewe View Post
    I don't think I ever wanted a camera as bad as I wanted the fixed 2/3" scarlet. To this day if RED had a garage sale and sold those i'd pick one up.
    Me too. My favorite general purpose format is the 1” or S16mm range. I wound up with a Digital Bolex instead. Still use lenses I used on my film Bolexes.
     

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