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  1. #1961  
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    There is a reason that most critical application scientific instrumentation cameras and astronomical cameras still use global shutter CCD's. Each frame is a self consistent time coherent image. With rolling shutters, even fast ones, picture elements that occur in portions of the frame not being scanned are not recorded. The classic example is flash banding from still cameras at live events. If one wanted to interpolate slow mo frames into a normal frame rate video stream, that can be done easily with global shutter frames. It is extremely difficult to do that without visible artifacts with any form of rolling shutter.

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  2. #1962  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    It seems evident from Jarred’s comments that Komodo will do 60fps at 4k for sure. So that will cover the broadcast 60fps SDI output and slo-mo. Probably 120fps @ 2k. It also puts it on par with virtually all 4k alternatives in its price range.
    You loose supersampling by doing 4K for 4K. It's good that we might have 60 fps in 4K at least, but if we look at alternatives at these price ranges, they often do an internal supersampling before outputting 4K.
    It's easy to see the loss of fidelity if you shoot 4K high speed with higher compression on a regular DSMC2. You need resolution to get the fidelity lost by the compression and then supersample it down to 4K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald MJ Anderson View Post
    As I say, now Hydrogen is RIP, (which I see as a good thing for resources, focus etc) an extra boost to specs and to cost wont rock the hydrogen apple cart cause that cart caught fire and rolled away.
    Exactly, I rather have a fully-fledged super small Red camera than something feeling like a half step within Red's lineup. If it needs faster clock speeds, maybe a different cooling material or whatever needed. It will add cost and increase the price, but if it's pretty much a complete camera under $10 000 we are back in the philosophy of Red doing disruptive cinema tech that changes the entire landscape of how to do movies and projects.
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  3. #1963  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    So giving a reality check

    That has nothing to do with reality check.
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  4. #1964  
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    There is a reason that most critical application scientific instrumentation cameras and astronomical cameras still use global shutter CCD's. Each frame is a self consistent time coherent image. With rolling shutters, even fast ones, picture elements that occur in portions of the frame not being scanned are not recorded. The classic example is flash banding from still cameras at live events. If one wanted to interpolate slow mo frames into a normal frame rate video stream, that can be done easily with global shutter frames. It is extremely difficult to do that without visible artifacts with any form of rolling shutter.
    But we are not doing scientific studies, we create art and cinematography. Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems. If there are cut-off flashes for example, it was an easy fix in grade. There are benefits to rolling shutters over global shutters that might create further headaches.

    There's no question that a global shutter as a tech in itself is better than a rolling one, but is it worth the drawbacks compared to a cutting edge rolling shutter sensor that might manage faster fps in a creative space? If people are doing science with their cameras, I don't think Komodo is their first choice.
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  5. #1965  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    That has nothing to do with reality check.
    What are you talking about? You put two sentences from two different posts together and created a new context to answer to.

    This is called "Contextomy" fallacy.
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  6. #1966  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    What are you talking about? You put two sentences from two different posts together and created a new context to answer to.

    This is called "Contextomy" fallacy.
    Okay, let my try to clarify:

    I'm talking about:
    - 56000 posts in this thread of your specs/market positioning/business strategy/wishful thinking fantasy process, about a camera which is not even out yet, and most of info about it is not available
    - Ty's comment on the post I quoted suggesting you went off-board with a specs/price comment
    - The intro of the other post where you comment his reaction, suggesting a reality check by perceiving your inner narrative as reality


    I will glady consider the error in my reasoning.
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  #1967  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    But we are not doing scientific studies, we create art and cinematography. Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems..
    That's funny.. because we hear about it on almost every single major production... and that's not a RED thing.. its an everything thing. People just have learned to live with it. Just a few weeks ago the cameras that you are comparing Komodo to were eliminated from a major production because of it. Again.... Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.

    But anyways... what you are asking for is a completely different camera... and a camera that we already make. When you say give us double the framerates and these other things and then we will pay double the price... And I'll say go check out the Dragon-X.

    Again.. I understand the confusion.
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  8. #1968  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    - 56000 posts in this thread of your specs/market positioning/business strategy/wishful thinking fantasy process, about a camera which is not even out yet, and most of info about it is not available
    Are you saying that on an online forum, some people should be silent, even though their remarks, criticism, questions, suggestions and speculation drives a discourse better than random comments about nothing? What is your point? That you don't like what I say? That is not the same as trying to point out that a frequent poster on an online forum should stay quiet just because you dislike it, which is essentially what you say here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    - Ty's comment on the post I quoted suggesting you went off-board with a specs/price comment
    Ty's comment was irrelevant since all it was had to do with complaining that I sound negative. As far as I know, I don't do ad hominems and questioning, criticizing, making suggestions, analyzing the market, speculating about Komodo should be something everyone is doing. Why do some feel the need to tell others to be quiet? This is a place where customers of Red can have a discourse of the tech and have communication with Red directly. Both you and Ty comments on another user's viability to speak out. If you don't like it, skip through it, you two are in no place to judge the existence of another member of this forum. Simple as that.

    If you think I'm off the mark, comment on that specific thing, why its off the mark and I'll answer that, the rest is just unnecessary noise far more than any post on topic that I've written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    - The intro of the other post where you comment his reaction, suggesting a reality check by perceiving your inner narrative as reality
    Maybe you should read it again and see what context it's about. My remark was in relation to the Hydrogen release in which people flooded with praises of something that they knew close to nothing about. Praising something without specs and info is not the same as putting forth questions and criticism based on the info we know. The remark I answered to were the idea that I have an agenda with what I write. The simple answer is that I don't have any agenda, but I like to chime in with the questions and criticism that was so needed during the Hydrogen reveal since there was a lot of kool-aid going into that one. A few did the same thing back then, but were just as criticized as having an agenda when they questioned the fact the processor of the phone was last gen, that the holo-screen might not be enough for it to take off
    on the market. That was what I mean by a reality check, to be another voice through the constant blind praises to this. Of course, some people don't like discourse, don't like criticism, don't like people questioning stuff. But you have no real right to boss around just because you don't like it.

    And the reasoning behind it is simple. To question, criticize and speculate as I do has the purpose of urging improvements to Komodo. I have my personal interest in staying within the Red infrastructure and I want Komodo to be even better than what has been speculated based on the info given from Jarred. Just saying "awesome camera!!!" won't do any of that. Only by asking for improvements will that come to the table. Just take the many criticizing posts people made about proprietary media and how they instead wanted something like CFast... Jarred's response was to implement it to Komodo and write "we listened".

    Jarred and Red constantly listen to us users, to our concerns and suggestions. If I'm painted as the annoying guy through how much I discuss these things I would like to see improved on the Komodo, I really don't care as long as there's a little chance of pushing the tech a little further.

    So, with the way you jump onto criticizing the way I write, how little you like my posts, Ty's remark that he thinks I sound negative in my posts, I wonder what you want to achieve?

    And maybe I do have an agenda... I want Komodo to be better than what we can speculate from the info we know. And we can speculate quite accurately based on the info released. That is my agenda with this. Stop thinking of it as a complimentary camera, stop thinking of it as dislocated from the market, just make a damn good small A-Cam for a low price. And through that I see further improvements that I think are necessary, such as increasing fps at FF. You can call that "wishful thinking fantasy", I see it as urging Red to improve upon the camera they are developing. And I think you should stop playing a forum moderator with personal forum rules, I do precisely what this forum is meant for, discourse.
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  #1969  
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    guys... play nice.
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  10. #1970  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.
    This reminds me of some behind the scene footage from the set of Transformers 4 (a film I hated so much but that doesn't take anything away from the talented people behind it ^^) where we see Michael Bay running after Mark Wahlberg with a RED camera (Epic Dragon if I recall correctly) in his hands. Just the brain, a small cine lense, an ND TAPED to the lense, the screen and the battery. I can't find the image right now but I'm pretty sure this illustrates perfectly the type of action shoots scenarios for what Komodo is taylored.
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