Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: KOMODO....

Reply to Thread
Page 109 of 358 FirstFirst ... 95999105106107108109110111112113119159209 ... LastLast
Results 1,081 to 1,090 of 3579
  1. #1081  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    994
    One thing for sure....RED has much more competition than before. They are going to have to kill it with Komodo both in being feature rich and priced accordingly. There was a time when for a lot of us we would never consider anything but RED...the times have changed...I've seen lot of my DP friends as well as myself using quite often other cameras now.
    Fingers crossed on Komodo!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #1082  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    I don't think he is because it's the rational response to the competing specs.

    If it ends up being the best of the mid-tier cameras it's gonna win over the competition due to both being better and having the Red brand. But competing with Z Cam and Blackmagic is tough, it can't be a half-assed attempt at a Z Cam clone, but that's not what I expect from Red.
    Well ... "competing specs" is ONE part of the equation - the BIGGER part of the equation is ... "competing image quality". Just look at the options and prices in still camera market.

    And SOME specs are more important to SOME users over others.

    BM delivers a good value for the price for sure - but many folks can't handle the moire/aliasing, etc. - if you ONLY looked at the specs of the BM 6K Pocket camera and the price - you would think everyone would just stop making cameras and that would be the only camera, right?

    So ... what if KOMODO did NOT "out spec" a ZCAM or BM 6K pocket camera in every spec (codecs/RAW/etc) - but the image quality was FAR superior???

    Think about this .... if you looked at every single MOTION camera that is running at this very second - shooting content this very second all around the world .... the vast majority are shooting for the internet (youtube, etc).

    And they are shooting on DSLRs.
    DSLRs that are not even shooting motion RAW, are using internal H264/5 and also recording externally to 4K UHD to various codecs.

    My gut is that Komodo is for that market - and I think a lot of folks are having wildly unrealistic expectations. I don't think this will be a B-camera for high-end digital cinema. I think Gemini Ranger is a killer "B-Cam" for any high end production.

    But I have been wrong before.
    Mark L. Pederson
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #1083  
    Senior Member Bérenger Brillante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,854
    nice to read this, I too think Komodo will some kind of highend mirrorless camera, with less specs, but a to die for picture quality for the market, and a ease of use without too much accessories.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #1084  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,074
    You bring up some valid and interesting points Mark.

    Image quality, just as you said can be quite subjective.

    Specs are _sometimes_ but not always a way of trying to frame objective concepts :

    X Stops above middle gray, y stops below middle gray
    Color gamut
    Bit Depth
    Resolution / result ratio (Moire) (nyquist principle)
    Rolling shutter readout time (this wasn’t mentioned as a “spec number” per se before recently (integration time)

    I think one key point for the entry level market is that it either has to deliver at a sub $2900 price for a camera body to be entry level “dabbler” buy - this was set 10 years ago by the 5D Mark 2 and hasn’t changed too much since (except maybe getting lower once in a while)

    Or it has to pack a ton of specs and capabilities...

    Or it has to do both... lower price and higher abilities with possibly some caveats...

    A lot of this has to do with what Red’s desired TAM is.

    If they’re looking for a higher volume TAM, things will have to be spicy in a self-cannibalizing way.

    They could take the Red Raven as a runout on potential for price, but that was a very different time than today.

    Komodo will need image quality, high frame rates at 4K acquisition, and strong feature set including redcode raw to live up to the potential I believe it has.

    I think it will deliver unless something totally crazy happens like it’s deeply feature set crippled to protect legacy customers and it only records HEVC and tops out at 6K 25fps / 4K 50fps, or is limited to redcode 12:1
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #1085  
    BM turns the dial to 11.... Lol. WTF nuts, no? As if the introduction price was not low enough.

    https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/09/...bq72ObIBOFEQBo


    If this continues, soon everyone that takes on a camera will be paid for holding it...
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    VFX / Flame / Motion capture / Monstro
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #1086  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,718
    OMG this is getting a little nuts.
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #1087  
    Senior Member DJ Meyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    BM turns the dial to 11.... Lol. WTF nuts, no? As if the introduction price was not low enough.

    https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/09/...bq72ObIBOFEQBo


    If this continues, soon everyone that takes on a camera will be paid for holding it...
    Looks like it was a mistake.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #1088  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    3,993
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L. Pederson View Post
    Well ... "competing specs" is ONE part of the equation - the BIGGER part of the equation is ... "competing image quality". Just look at the options and prices in still camera market.

    And SOME specs are more important to SOME users over others.

    BM delivers a good value for the price for sure - but many folks can't handle the moire/aliasing, etc. - if you ONLY looked at the specs of the BM 6K Pocket camera and the price - you would think everyone would just stop making cameras and that would be the only camera, right?

    So ... what if KOMODO did NOT "out spec" a ZCAM or BM 6K pocket camera in every spec (codecs/RAW/etc) - but the image quality was FAR superior???

    Think about this .... if you looked at every single MOTION camera that is running at this very second - shooting content this very second all around the world .... the vast majority are shooting for the internet (youtube, etc).

    And they are shooting on DSLRs.
    DSLRs that are not even shooting motion RAW, are using internal H264/5 and also recording externally to 4K UHD to various codecs.

    My gut is that Komodo is for that market - and I think a lot of folks are having wildly unrealistic expectations. I don't think this will be a B-camera for high-end digital cinema. I think Gemini Ranger is a killer "B-Cam" for any high end production.

    But I have been wrong before.
    Of course, some specs are more important for some than others. But it's not that simple that it's only based on price. There's a comparison video between one of the other brands cheap cameras compared to Dragon 6K and the Dragon falls apart so extremely bad in low-light that it's not even usable compared to the cheaper one. So what is "superior" in image quality is also subjective. Some want to shoot with the low light OLPF while others want more highlight protection than the Standard OLPF. There are also those who fix common issues on a specific brand, like the re-built sensor filter for BMD Ursa cameras to get better moire handling. People do what they can to get superior images out of the system they have.

    The thing, though, is that we've reached a diminishing return for image quality. We can pixel peep our way to a conclusion about who's best, but all brands give you enough for most kinds of cinematography. It all depends on whether or not you're an expert of that specific system you're using. People learn to compensate for what's missing in their system. More expensive systems handle more areas of the images in a way that makes you less focused on compensating the cons, like, you don't have to care as much with highlights on a Red compared to a BMD pocket.

    So it all comes down to what a certain system gives you within a certain price-point and how that compares to others.

    If you learn to compensate the cons of a Pocket 6K, you will be able to get images just as good as shooting on a Dragon 6K. So the bottom line is; how much is a system worth based on how much you need to compensate for its drawbacks? And as diminishing returns are increasing, is it worth spending thousands and thousands of dollars on systems that generally aren't that far off from the less expensive ones?

    People who invest in cameras can spend more on other things like good lighting gear, good sliders, motion controls, gimbals and so on, rather than putting everything into a system that might not be worth the small advancement in picture quality.

    Then there's the fact that a camera is more than the image quality. Of course, some people just want something good straight out of the camera, but even youtubers are concerned with reliable quality for their videos. Many of them have better production quality than most broadcast networks. Komodo has a higher price point than the others, but what sets it apart is if it has Redcode RAW at low compression, IPP2 with good highlight protection, genlockability, SDI-Out, etc. that sets it closer to industry needs than the DSLR equivalents like the S1H. I much rather want it to have all that and be s35mm than not have those things and be full-frame like the S1H.

    If Komodo was priced at $2500 like the Pocket 6K, then it would be another story. The demands on Komodo's abilities would be much less crucial. But at a $5000 price-point there has to be some improvements over the others. Red cannot just survive on having a premium mid-tier price because it has a Red logo on it. Maybe the only thing it really has over the others is a Red sensor, R3D and better highlight protection over 14 stops. That would certainly be worth the increase in price. But is matching the competition the way to win against the competition? Having a Komodo perform at s35+, 6K with R3D IPP2 at 5:1 compression with 50 FPS FF and good highlights over 14 stops would kill all competition both in terms of camera body practicality and image quality.

    The thing I feel will be Red's best weapon against the competition is R3D and image quality. Those two are pretty powerful features for a $5000 pricetag. If the camera can do even more than that, it will kill the competition.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #1089  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,718
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L. Pederson View Post
    Well ... "competing specs" is ONE part of the equation - the BIGGER part of the equation is ... "competing image quality". Just look at the options and prices in still camera market.

    And SOME specs are more important to SOME users over others.

    BM delivers a good value for the price for sure - but many folks can't handle the moire/aliasing, etc. - if you ONLY looked at the specs of the BM 6K Pocket camera and the price - you would think everyone would just stop making cameras and that would be the only camera, right?

    So ... what if KOMODO did NOT "out spec" a ZCAM or BM 6K pocket camera in every spec (codecs/RAW/etc) - but the image quality was FAR superior???

    Think about this .... if you looked at every single MOTION camera that is running at this very second - shooting content this very second all around the world .... the vast majority are shooting for the internet (youtube, etc).

    And they are shooting on DSLRs.
    DSLRs that are not even shooting motion RAW, are using internal H264/5 and also recording externally to 4K UHD to various codecs.

    My gut is that Komodo is for that market - and I think a lot of folks are having wildly unrealistic expectations. I don't think this will be a B-camera for high-end digital cinema. I think Gemini Ranger is a killer "B-Cam" for any high end production.

    But I have been wrong before.
    I agree with you, which is why if Komodo can deliver Epic Dragon or Epic MX level DR within an .R3D, then that's already winning.

    Even if it's just 24 or 48fps at 6K, and maybe 60fps at 4K.

    That's enough.

    It would be a tiny Epic MX or Epic Dragon.

    I mean that's amazing.

    But yeah would not be a Gemini, Helium or Monstro - that's the next step up.

    And what your saying is 100% true.

    Specs are one thing. But color workflow and image quality are another.
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #1090  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    5,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    There's a third plausible option; they want to push more people into Red so that future sales of Red's higher-end models are secured through it. (snip)
    My theoretical option #1 noted "provide an entry point into the RED ecosystem". I deliberately bundled the higher volume sales goal with the lowered cost of entry benefit as I believe they are intertwined. This is based on my supposition that higher volumes are required to reduce unit costs sufficiently for RED to sell cameras at a lower price and still make a buck.

    More to the point, how does RED envision their future as a camera maker? How do they see Komodo in that light?

    Cheers - #19
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts