Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: KOMODO....

Closed Thread
Page 94 of 371 FirstFirst ... 4484909192939495969798104144194 ... LastLast
Results 931 to 940 of 3709
  1. #931  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    It's probably intended for the same uses people would look to a Z CAM for on the mid/high end. Like I said, the difference is those productions will more readily choose s RED for that purpose than a Z CAM.
    Not if it doesn't deliver better than Z Cam. These owner-operators care more for what they get for the price-point than those owning a Monstro 8K. Price isn't an issue higher up because everything costs a fortune and you will earn a fortune on the work you do. Those with a smaller income plan investments based on cost versus quality and if Komodo isn't much better than Z Cam, they will just buy 2 Z Cam's instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    budget minded-shooters who are willing to pay a little more (but not as much as they could be)
    Budget-minded people with a low-budget will never buy a camera that doesn't justify it being double the price of a Pocket 6K, that's called a stupid person. A smart budget-minded person with enough budget might even buy two Pocket 6K's just to have a fail-safe on set rather than one Komodo that can fail and set them back for that day's budget. Or buy two Pockets to shoot multicam and save production time.

    Why would anyone buy a Komodo if it doesn't deliver much more than a Pocket 6K? That is what I mean by Red needing to face the competition. Or else we will have even more "why I sold my Red Komodo for two Pocket 6K's" videos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    Technological advancement isn't exclusive to the low end. You talk as if RED or others won't be doing any advancing of their own.
    Diminishing returns. Red's development improvements have slowed down, just as with all others doing high end cameras. I would say that improvements going forward has more to do with camera bodies that are quieter, smaller or bigger with more features. Wireless technology being more important than improvements on the sensors. But all of this is being put into cheaper options at the same time. Red isn't able to do much more really, there's a diminishing return for everything in technology.

    A fridge can't do cold better than other fridges, so they compete by making smart things like displays, ice-makers, self-cleaning etc. Nothing has to do with the quality of the "cold" in the fridge.
    What else do you think Red can do? Increase K's? Does that seem to be important beyond 8K for people? Increase DR? Sure, but how many utilize all stops on their Red? Lower noise in low light? Sure, like everyone else is already better at? What exactly will be the next improvement and can it be such a leap that Red keeps the crown? Diminishing returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    I don't see this going any differently than it has in the past, given what I've seen announced recently.
    How far back are you looking? We could make a long list of companies bankrupt by not applying to the advancement of technology. Blackberry had seen attempts at smartphones before the iPhone and they acted just as they've always did. Want to buy a Blackberry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    Name one camera that's popular in the rest of the world but not the states.
    By popular, what do you mean? Media and internet coverage of different brands? Do you think China isn't using Kinfinity cameras? What statistics are you going by here? It's easy to be biased towards what you know, not what is.
    As mentioned, there are probably far more content creators, influencers, small companies and studios than there are big Hollywood sized ones, you think all of them only use Red's and Arri's?

    I'm going by a probability measurement here, not the surround I'm personally exposed to. And you know, what you are exposed to in these times are defined by algorithms which tailor your experience online, so if you see lots of Red and Arri news, that's no coincident. I'll bet that there are people in China who don't even know about Red or Arri, but who shoot with a Kinfinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    I'm saying until they produce a serious contender to RED's lineup
    But that is what is happening as we speak. Have you ever tried playing around with material from the Pocket 6K? They have RAW footage on their homepage to try out and I can only say, yes, the Dragon 6K is still better, but not by much. And that is the key to all of this... "not by much". It means that at this moment, Red is still better, but "not by much". Which is radically different from just last years global lineup of cameras. And if we count in brand loyalty, we could exclude Kinfinity, Z Cam and such, but not Blackmagic, they aren't a small company and Panasonic isn't either and Sigma isn't either.

    You really think that within two years, we won't see a big change in the competition quality? I'd bet people dismissing the Pocket 6K haven't even tried checking that footage out yet.
    Imagine if they released a Pocket at the price of a Komodo, based on what they do at the price of half a Komodo. Pocket 6K is already a contender, since many are, as we speak, changing from their Red to a Pocket 6K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    You freely admit it outclasses the Pocket 6K.
    Only counting by the sensor. But a big heavy Epic Dragon is no match for a sub-2 lb Pocket 6K that could be used with a cheap gimbal to achieve results far beyond what you can do with that Epic Dragon. And good luck with getting side-gear to that Epic Dragon since Red doesn't sell that anymore. Buying an old Red is foolish for a business compared to alternatives today.

    Anyone buying an old Red when the Pocket 6K is around, is a fool. Red One is not "more camera", not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    There doesn't seem to be enough sense of stability for these cameras to cause the revolution
    You are mistaking revolution for disruption. A revolution is pushing people to use totally new technologies, like when we went from 35mm to digital cinema, a disruption is changing the landscape of the technology. AMD disrupted Intel for server-based processors, Sony disrupted the DSLR shooters with their mirrorless cameras and so on. Red was totally unstable when it came out, only few years into the business did they stabilize and became what they are today. BM is kinda the new kid on the block, they have had just as much of a rough start as Red did, but do you really think it will be the same going forward?

    You base all your argument on the status quo. It's the same kind of thing that failing daytraders on the stock market does. Where's the wind blowing? Let go of biases and feel the breeze.

    QUOTE=Brian Boyer;1868041]If BMD were truly targeting serious productions for A-cam work or B-cam gimbal/drone work with the Pocket 6K, they wouldn't have put it in a DSLR form factor with an EF-only mount.[/QUOTE]

    RF is still so new that they might not have jumped onto that in time. The Pocket 6K was probably in development at the time of the RF mount announced and people bashed it at that time. When everyone went with EF mounts before that, it makes sense they had that design locked down already. You speak as if they release cameras without any development time behind it. Going by what people are saying about RF-mounts at this time and the craze of Komodo/ZCam style bodies, it might just be that the blueprint for a FF 8K small camera with RF mount is in development at the BMD R&D department.

    You judge stuff by the status quo, that's not how you predict what is going to be. I'm not saying these companies disrupted the market in 2019, I'm always saying that in the coming two years, there's a very high probability that Red needs to adapt or stick with only high-end production cameras (like Arri does), since a substantial part of the user-base move over to more rational options.

    This is the whole reason for Komodo's existence, it's for THAT market, the market who are about to sell their Red to get something more rationally priced for their job without cutting back too much on the quality they deliver.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
     

  2. #932  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    RED, on the other hand, put Komodo in a more flexible, production friendly body with an RF mount, which can be adapted to just about any lens with relative ease. Which company sounds stuck and which one sounds forward thinking in that regard?
    Red is know for trying out new concept faster than most others. That doesn't mean others aren't adapting the RF mount as well.

    Think about this; Komodo is released, it matches or improves upon what the Pocket 6K delivers and is reasonable for its price-point. Then BMD releases an 8K FF with an RF mount as a way to compete.
    What then? A new Komodo with an FF sensor and better processing? BMD releases the same kind of update and so on. How would that affect Red's higher lineup?

    The status quo is irrelevant, the current state of the Pocket 6K is irrelevant, it's what its hinting at that is key to all of this. That's how you predict the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    Komodo is not going to be the unbelievably spec'd camera the wishful thinking in this thread hopes it will be.
    Then it will fail just as the Hydrogen did. It needs to match the competition, the Hydrogen didn't, it tried to be something disruptive with a technology no one asked for and didn't deliver on being a good phone compared to the competition. If you aim at a specific market, you need to deliver what that market wants. If you don't and you price it even higher than others, then you will fail, plain and simple. This market cares about price-points, the high end cinema market does not, since the income is so much higher. At the highest level cinema camera market, people aren't really thinking much about price, they think about what they want; do I want an Alexa? Do I want a Red? Do I want a Sony? Do I want full-frame? Do I want medium-format? Do I want high resolution? Not "Red costs this much and Arri cost this much".

    However, the mid-range market of content creators, low budget filmmakers, YouTubers, and so on all look at what they get compared to its price-point. Many choose smaller lighter cameras not because of the sensor but because they can stick it to a hand-held gimbal to it and get far cooler shots than others. This is the market for the Komodo and if Red thinks that they can just release an over-priced camera spec-matched to the Pocket 6K, they will do the same thing as with the Hydrogen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    That doesn't mean RED is doomed.
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if they don't do right with Komodo, they will be forced to lose the user-base of that market and become much more like Arri who only works at the highest end cinema and television market. Just look at Red's marketing videos "why Red?" almost none of them who are using Red cameras are actually just cinematographers making narrative work. They are all over the place, Red has a broader market than Arri and the Komodo is the key to keeping much of that market. Red is no way near doomed, but there's a change in winds that the Komodo is the answer to, if it succeeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
    BMD still struggles with to some extent, although they are getting better.
    As mentioned earlier, have you tried playing around with the footage from the Pocket 6K? Seems like plenty of people are guessing the quality of the Pocket 6K by some compressed LUT-slapped footage online without ever even fiddling around with their RAW footage themselves. I've done so much color grading with Dragon 6K material and I have to say that the Pocket 6K quality is not to be taken lightly. Imagine if BMD beefed up the price and improved on that concept, imagine if they released a $10000 camera as a new iteration of the Pocket 6K. This is the wind I'm talking about, that the Pocket 6K is the breeze of.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
     

  3. #933  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    It feels like a bit of a Catch 22. IF the demo footage of the BMPCC6K on the web is an accurate representation of it's real world IQ, the Komodo would have to be DSMC2 Dragon level to justify the estimated $4,000 price delta. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does create the potential for fratricide of RED's DSMC2 sales to owner ops. If Komodo is a step below DSMC2 in image quality, then the gap between it and lower priced alternatives might not be sufficient to justify the higher cost.
    Which is exactly my point. And fiddling with the released RAW footage from the Pocket 6K and comparing that to my 6K Dragon sensor footage just makes me stand by that point even further. Sorry to say, but the Komodo HAVE to be a Dragon 6K equivalent. Or else it just becomes a "meh, I'll use the Pocket 6K until their MK II of that Pocket" or "I'll just get two Pocket 6K's.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
     

  4. #934  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    113


    Talk about disruption...The Canon C500 mII has it all! A super feature rich camera for under $20k. I hope the Komodo can set RED in a similar path of disruption with what it offers.
     

  5. #935  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Smucker View Post


    Talk about disruption...The Canon C500 mII has it all! A super feature rich camera for under $20k. I hope the Komodo can set RED in a similar path of disruption with what it offers.
    Yeah, saw the video earlier. Disruption is coming from all over and Canon is no small-time player, there are lots of people shooting on it.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
     

  6. #936  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Cannes area, France
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Yeah, saw the video earlier. Disruption is coming from all over and Canon is no small-time player, there are lots of people shooting on it.
    And still I don't understand why it uses CFExpress cards. Officially because their 5.9K RAW Lite @ 60fps has a bit rate of 2.5 Gb/sec but that's like 312.5 MB/sec which is still under what CFAST 2.0 can do. Am I missing something ? (like there's some kind of buffer in cards which forces your to have double your codec bitrate ?)
    VIDEO EDITING - COLOR GRADING - VFX
    APPLE FINAL CUT PRO, AVID MEDIA COMPOSER
    ADOBE CREATIVE CLOUD, DAVINCI RESOLVE, REDCINE X PRO...
     

  7. #937  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    283
    Canon camera with a not much better codec than .r3d. what does all the resolutions help if I can't edit it without problems. Wouldn't buy that plastic bomber and rather get a dragon-x or gemini.
    Weapon CF Monstro #1119, Weapon Helium, Epic-X #7926 BAM, Raven #220
     

  8. #938  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Cannes area, France
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Baulig View Post
    Canon camera with a not much better codec than .r3d. what does all the resolutions help if I can't edit it without problems. Wouldn't buy that plastic bomber and rather get a dragon-x or gemini.
    Never had any issue with Canon Raw Lite on Premiere Pro CC (but I prefer Redcode Raw anyway :p)
    VIDEO EDITING - COLOR GRADING - VFX
    APPLE FINAL CUT PRO, AVID MEDIA COMPOSER
    ADOBE CREATIVE CLOUD, DAVINCI RESOLVE, REDCINE X PRO...
     

  9. #939  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    11,470
    Quote Originally Posted by Bastien Tribalat View Post
    And still I don't understand why it uses CFExpress cards. Officially because their 5.9K RAW Lite @ 60fps has a bit rate of 2.5 Gb/sec but that's like 312.5 MB/sec which is still under what CFAST 2.0 can do. Am I missing something ? (like there's some kind of buffer in cards which forces your to have double your codec bitrate ?)
    2.1 Gb/s actually. But I suspect more than anything that this new media type has more to do with their upcoming 8K camera needing an internal recording solution and I think the side effect is since they've now pulled the switch on licensing the hardware that both cameras will use Type B CFexpress media. Yes, the C500 MK II appears to work within the boundaries of CFast 2.0 data rates. Though maybe they'll have less compression than 3:1 or 5:1 in the future?
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
     

  10. #940  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Cannes area, France
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    2.1 Gb/s actually. But I suspect more than anything that this new media type has more to do with their upcoming 8K camera needing an internal recording solution and I think the side effect is since they've now pulled the switch on licensing the hardware that both cameras will use Type B CFexpress media. Yes, the C500 MK II appears to work within the boundaries of CFast 2.0 data rates. Though maybe they'll have less compression than 3:1 or 5:1 in the future?
    Don't know. On C700 and C700FF they rely on a Codex Recorder for the uncompressed Canon RAW.
    VIDEO EDITING - COLOR GRADING - VFX
    APPLE FINAL CUT PRO, AVID MEDIA COMPOSER
    ADOBE CREATIVE CLOUD, DAVINCI RESOLVE, REDCINE X PRO...
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts