Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: KOMODO....

Reply to Thread
Page 117 of 184 FirstFirst ... 1767107113114115116117118119120121127167 ... LastLast
Results 1,161 to 1,170 of 1835
  1. #1161  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Display tech will continue to improve, which means that continual improvement in capture devices has meaning.

    Currently, the laggard is bandwidth limitations that lead to over compression and bit depth decimation.

    How long will it take before >100mb/s sustained feeds will be common amongst the mass market? How much bandwidth would be required, assuming advancements in compression of 4x are attainable over the next decade, to reach the (nominal) limits of the wetware?

    How far in the future is a 16K, 120fps, 14 stop, 16bit color, 120" diagonal display? Will 2D RGB displays even matter in a VR/AR/MR future?

    All interesting issues, but in a marketplace where a camera has to pay for itself in 24 months (or so) does it matter?

    Cheers - #19
    Do any of you guys shoot hires footage for digital signage and videowall markets?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #1162  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    3,963
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Display tech will continue to improve, which means that continual improvement in capture devices has meaning.

    Currently, the laggard is bandwidth limitations that lead to over compression and bit depth decimation.

    How long will it take before >100mb/s sustained feeds will be common amongst the mass market? How much bandwidth would be required, assuming advancements in compression of 4x are attainable over the next decade, to reach the (nominal) limits of the wetware?

    How far in the future is a 16K, 120fps, 14 stop, 16bit color, 120" diagonal display? Will 2D RGB displays even matter in a VR/AR/MR future?

    All interesting issues, but in a marketplace where a camera has to pay for itself in 24 months (or so) does it matter?

    Cheers - #19
    I agree,

    Bandwidth, processor limitations (nanometer problem), server location power supply limits and so on are factors no one seem to factor in. 4K delivery is barely holding ground without drastically compress the signal and going by Yedlin's argument we would be better off improving that 4K quality than upping the resolution. A 4K stream where the grain/noise of 35mm films is clearly displayed without compression artifacts needs to be a thing way before we even think about upping the resolution to 8K. The diminishing returns of perceivable viewing resolutions on normal TV's at normal distances just make 8K TV's reek of marketing jargons rather than actual improvements in real-world situations, both for the viewer experience and the content creators.

    The thing is pretty simple. If we keep doing stuff with the normal Bayer-sensor technology we use today, display with the normal RGB display technology we have, using the same type of 1/0 binary computation process for handling footage, using the same kind of broadband connections etc. we will hit walls all over the place. People dream way too much about the possibilities of the future, but the only way around the limitations is if we re-invent technologies from the ground up. Displays need a new technological overhaul, sensors need to be a new type of sensor, computers need to radically increase speeds over nanometer limitations with data handled in ways beyond just 1/0 binaries, new internet bandwidth technologies for distributing all that data and so on.

    When we have the possibilities of cameras with 100MP, 16K, 25 stops, 18bit and so on, we also have to factor in that real-time graphics might have reached photo-real levels. The rise of movies shot in real-time graphics in a mocap studio might eventually dominate most high-end productions since there's little to no need for expensive real-world locations and crews. If big-budget productions such as Marvel movies start doing that instead of shooting for real, then who will use the powerful future cameras? While bandwidths, server halls and computers need to deliver more and more streams of 8K material without compression artifacts.

    Just thinking that the world will just march on as always with technological advancements on the tech we are using today is ignoring the limiting factors that are actually starting to take a toll on this advancement today. All while more and more people around the globe start to use more and more resources as their societies start to improve quality of life. It's impossible to just narrow down the camera market to a single POV and say that things will just keep getting bigger and better without including the whole perspective of the entire world of technology and people's wants and needs.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #1163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    When we have the possibilities of cameras with 100MP, 16K, 25 stops, 18bit and so on, .
    If we had 100Mp 25 stop 18 bit imagery some folks would fantasize about 200Mp 30 stop 20 bit imagery just because.

    Unsatisfied with 100MP 25 stop 18 bit imagery.
    While cinema dominates with 6MP 14 stop 12 bit image origin.

    What would be the purpose of 100MP 25 stop 18 bit motion imaging btw and what do you think you would gain over what is possible today ?
    http://i68.tinypic.com/drcb4y.jpg


    Analog > Camera feel optimization http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Camera performance optimization http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #1164 I'll bite. 
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    5,054
    With a Bayer pattern CMOS sensor, 100 megapixels sounds pretty good

    I suppose 25 stops at capture would have some value, but 20 clean stops would be enough to create high fidelity imagery sufficient for the wetware.

    I loves me some bit depth. Assuming the resulting data set can be manipulated in real time with available hardware, bring it on.

    I would point out that narrative cinema has a beloved tradition of creating an "altered state of reality" that is not always best served by looking "too real".

    For a variety of applications like sports, nature, etc its a different conversation. There are plenty of resources to dig into the operation of the human visual system, the standard observer reference, etc.

    My "back of the envelope" estimate is that a 16K, 2:1 aspect ratio 2D screen with precise color rendition and 14 stops of DR is enough for the wetware. Beyond that, I believe you'd be well into diminishing returns. Screen size/viewing distance controlled by limits of peripheral vision acuity and discernible samples per arc degree of the human visual system.

    Cheers - #19
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #1165  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    I would point out that narrative cinema has a beloved tradition of creating an "altered state of reality" that is not always best served by looking "too real".
    Exactly. I still don’t understand why people want their images to look more and more clinical. The movies and tv shows never looked as artificial and visually boring as they do now. It’s sometimes difficult to see anything else than makeup, obvious sets, harsh lights, poor CGIs and theater acting performances. I’m sure that the 2.8/3.4k Alexa will still be there for years for this reason.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #1166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    With a Bayer pattern CMOS sensor, 100 megapixels sounds pretty good

    I suppose 25 stops at capture would have some value, but 20 clean stops would be enough to create high fidelity imagery sufficient for the wetware.

    I loves me some bit depth. Assuming the resulting data set can be manipulated in real time with available hardware, bring it on.

    I would point out that narrative cinema has a beloved tradition of creating an "altered state of reality" that is not always best served by looking "too real".

    For a variety of applications like sports, nature, etc its a different conversation. There are plenty of resources to dig into the operation of the human visual system, the standard observer reference, etc.

    My "back of the envelope" estimate is that a 16K, 2:1 aspect ratio 2D screen with precise color rendition and 14 stops of DR is enough for the wetware. Beyond that, I believe you'd be well into diminishing returns. Screen size/viewing distance controlled by limits of peripheral vision acuity and discernible samples per arc degree of the human visual system.

    Cheers - #19
    I think you are forgetting that there's still a question of HFR or not. To be safe, you could record everything at 240 fps with 360 degree shutter. That would allow you to construct, in post, anything from 120fps at 180 degrees to 24fp at anywhere from 36 degree to 360 degree shutter.
    Michael Tiemann, Chapel Hill NC

    "Dream so big you can share!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #1167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann View Post
    I think you are forgetting that there's still a question of HFR or not. To be safe, you could record everything at 240 fps with 360 degree shutter. That would allow you to construct, in post, anything from 120fps at 180 degrees to 24fp at anywhere from 36 degree to 360 degree shutter.
    With a ~2 stop light loss and no motion blur for 24p. :)
    http://i68.tinypic.com/drcb4y.jpg


    Analog > Camera feel optimization http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Camera performance optimization http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #1168  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    3,963
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    What would be the purpose of 100MP 25 stop 18 bit motion imaging btw and what do you think you would gain over what is possible today ?
    Nothing. Or rather, yeah, we would have more possibilities in post, but we would probably have enough over our current specs with just 20 stops, 50-60MP and 16 bit. It's just that the end result of something shot now in 8K, 16bit, 16,5 stops for a 4K delivery compared to something with those specs for an 8K delivery wouldn't give you much in perceivable delivery quality. Couple that with streaming bandwidth and services that need to provide a clean and perceivably lossless 8K stream compared to the same in 4K.

    On a 4K, 75 inch screen, which is among the most common large screens for the small number of people who get large screens, we don't gain much of anything going higher than we are today. If we were to do cameras for idiots who can't expose properly, then something way beyond now is appropriate in order to give them the option to fix everything in post, but I assume that idiots aren't getting the gigs that require gear like the Monstro 8K, so for normally competent cinematographers there's not much you can do beyond the specs of today's most high-end cameras.

    I would say that the very end of reasonable specs, in order to give plenty of options in post, would be around 50-60MP, 20 stops and 16-18 bit. Beyond that I fail to see, or rather, I've yet to be convinced by anyone that there's any point going higher. Especially when we take into account how to handle that data, how to manage large scale productions, post-production, streaming and delivery.

    I guess that for special applications, such as wall-OLEDs, we would have 100MP cameras with special lenses that can cover that resolution. But these would be special cameras for very specific applications and material. No one rational would ever use that for cinema or TV shoots.

    For 99,99% of all worlds productions, I would say we've started to enter diminishing returns. And if you have any experience as a photographer or cinematographer, an 8K, 16bit, 16,5 stops camera gives you everything you need. Beyond it, there have to be some truly rational arguments to convince anyone that more MP's are needed.

    It becomes truly irrational when we start comparing spec-sheets for features that our human eyes would never see any differences between and which doesn't give us much more options in post anyway. It's like telling someone that the air you breathe in a room has 1% more air than the other room and will, therefore, give you a sense of a cleaner breathing atmosphere. All while you stand there and can't tell the difference between the two rooms, but the guy pushing the argument keep saying you're a moron for not sensing the difference.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #1169  
    Senior Member DJ Meyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    842
    Ahhh...the debate that is as old as time itself.

    How much faster of a horse does anyone really need?

    640K is enough for everyone!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #1170  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    3,963
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Meyer View Post
    Ahhh...the debate that is as old as time itself.

    How much faster of a horse does anyone really need?

    640K is enough for everyone!
    It has been a valid argument for a few years of improving cameras and delivery formats. The limit is the human perception of the final result, therefore, we've started to hit ceilings already.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts