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  1. #641  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah Miller View Post
    I find it interesting that Kinefinity seems to be months ahead of everyone (up to even a year+), putting out cameras with the new Sony sensors. Blackmagic seems to give the most reliable performance of all the brands, and Kinefinity has just gotten too expensive and tried to corner the high-end market which probably hurts their sales.

    Blackmagic menus are the best menus of any camera manufacturer, but I feel like their design is really good because of the limited features. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the codecs/options are missing from the Pocket 6K because they wouldn't fit anywhere on the simple menu layout.

    At least with the Pocket 4K/Terra 4K/GH5s/Z-Cam E2 situation, it's kinda funny that Blackmagic claimed the least dynamic range of all of those cameras, yet they probably have the largest usable range.

    I would need to dig into and see exactly what sensor they are using, but a few of the upcoming options are a new space, mainly Sigma and Panasonic. They are taking a minute due to other reasons as well, like expanded L-Mount stuff, maybe hardware/software related things too. ZCam is a different beast. If I recall correctly it was a 6K S35 announced and they went with the 6K FF35 design somewhere in spring. I think they are mainly just seeing what works and what people want at the end of the day. They got some heavy lifting to do still IMO, but that's where that is. I've been on the receiving end of some pretty heavy handed marketing from their side, which I think is fine, but I'm the wrong person to approach that way. Way wrong. I'm curious out of the current models shipping at the end of the year what will end up being a top seller and where we'll see them used.

    I see Kinefinity mostly expanding their presence when it comes to performance and pricing tiers, though extremely low adoption stateside for a whole bunch of reasons. They are at the moment exploring the $5.5K through $10K range with packages and features going up to nearly $20K. That's actually a pretty tight market presence. Mostly I see them positioning slightly above "entry level". BMD has that market cornered right now and is mainly competing with mirrorless cameras floating near the same tier now. And to their credit BRAW is setting them apart for now in this space in a nice way compared to other cameras and what exact codecs they offer around the same price. Outside of that, I don't see many companies truly wanting to compete in the sub $5K world when it comes to professional tools. And I'm not saying you can't use the BMD cameras professionally, it's just a matter of who is actually buying them, who they are targeting, and where they are mostly being used.

    BMD did a great job with the OS and menus. Designs-wise, pretty good. Snappiness = A. It's a really nice user experience. I'm 50/50 on occlusion of image from menu items, but it works nicely for them.

    On a personal note, based on some of the conversations online, not necessarily here, I don't think many people have realistic price versus performance expectations. Par for the course due to "want", but realistically when you look at all the surrounding costs, it's hard to bring something like say Komodo out for $3K and actually keep the lights on. Not with those materials and support, and I'm not touching on features because we don't even really know those yet. I have chats with people who think Monstro 8K VV should be a $10K camera, but those people aren't identifying the incredible lack of other 8K large format 60p cameras on the market. Even most of the 8K stuff I know is coming, the cheap stuff, tops out at 30p. And I'm not even getting into image quality related issues, features, or workflow. Same could be said about 5K 96fps cameras that RED offers in comparison to the rest of the market.

    I think that highlights much of my curiosity surrounding Komodo though. It's likely going to do more in some ways, perhaps less in other ways, than whatever else the market is doing. i'm still a bit shocked that they found a way to make any camera this small and at what I'm guessing is an "in bounds towards things around here" price point. I don't know what the stipulations of "It is not under $5k, unless you own a Hydrogen", but it's impressive RED can even make a quality camera for something like this price. Brave new world indeed.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

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    Red Weapon/DSMC2
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  2. #642  
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    Skills are way more important than equipment.



    Check this out: https://www.slashcam.de/news/single/...mit-15287.html

    Just google translate...
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  3. #643  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Engel View Post
    Skills are way more important than equipment.



    Check this out: https://www.slashcam.de/news/single/...mit-15287.html

    Just google translate...
    Maybe that’s where Hydrogen 2 will play. The “high end” of the phonography market.
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  4. #644  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post

    I have chats with people who think Monstro 8K VV should be a $10K camera, but those people aren't identifying the incredible lack of other 8K large format 60p cameras on the market. Even most of the 8K stuff I know is coming, the cheap stuff, tops out at 30p. And I'm not even getting into image quality related issues, features, or workflow. Same could be said about 5K 96fps cameras that RED offers in comparison to the rest of the market.
    I have a hard time believing Monstro costs an additional $30,000 (than Helium) to manufacture. Both 8k and same body so the only difference is the sensor. It is a tremendous cam and one of few currently but it's just a novelty fee at this point.
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  5. #645  
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    I believe that Jarred (EDIT: Forgive me if I mis-quoted, can't find the source) said the biggest cost is in the number of sensors that don't meet spec. So for every Monstro sensor that's placed in a camera, x amount has to be tossed.

    I imagine there's a considerable amount of $$$ tied up in R&D and other soft costs associated with that camera.

    There's a whole lot more than cost of materials that go into the latest tech, especially when you're an innovator.
    Last edited by David Johnson; 08-22-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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  6. #646  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Smucker View Post
    I have a hard time believing Monstro costs an additional $30,000 (than Helium) to manufacture. Both 8k and same body so the only difference is the sensor. It is a tremendous cam and one of few currently but it's just a novelty fee at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Johnson View Post
    I believe that Jarred said the biggest cost is in the number of sensors that don't meet spec. So for every Monstro sensor that's placed in a camera, x amount has to be tossed.

    I imagine there's a considerable amount of $$$ tied up in R&D and other soft costs associated with that camera.

    There's a whole lot more than cost of materials that go into the latest tech, especially when you're an innovator.
    Bigger sensors, no matter what = less yield on the wafer. That's sadly part of the costs that grow more exponentially on that front. I have no idea what RED uses, likely 200mm or 300mm wafers, but if you take into account the format sizes of Helium versus Monstro and potential yield, you'll likely get 2-2.5X more "in spec Helium sensors" off the silicon wafer alone, prior to potential other chaos that can occur in the process, theoretically that's 2X the price right there even on the core sensor cost before electronics are taken into account. This is why things like small cell phone sensors are so economical to make, you get a lot on a wafer (like a couple thousand) and if 1-16 the dies are bad, you still have a very high yield. There's a lot of forward moving effort to improve this when it comes to manufacturing, actually some big leaps just in the last few years I've learned through two of my clients, one of whom makes processors. Finding defects is like science fiction technology these days at the factories that make this stuff.

    I'm certain there's other costs in terms of getting faster readouts on larger sensors and all that too. There's a rather large difference between a large sensor that rocks out at 2-5fps versus one that can do 60fps. Tolerances across sensors and QC is also possibly a fun thing to factor in. Don't know all that accounts for it, but it's clear that for a while now it's a unique sensor design that's alarmingly good. In some ways a lot of people don't even commonly look at.

    Back when Dragon 8K VV was a thing I remember visiting Jarred at RSH before a rather large shoot and he had an entire wafer sitting on his desk of Dragon 8K VV sensors outlined on the full disc wafer, and the entire wafer didn't pass QC and I don't think that was a unique wafer from the batch. That's a chunk of cash alone. Big and high quality sensors are really, really hard to make. It's certainly one of the reasons many companies will go the route of buying a pre-fab sensor instead of going through the horrors of rolling their own. It clearly sounds expensive and painful.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  7. #647  
    Senior Member Paul Leeming's Avatar
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    I received my Blackmagic Pocket 6K today and rigged it up for cinema work. Let me tell you, this is, as pictured with everything aside from the lens, the realisation of 6K for $6K. This thing is INSANE for the money - a Super35, 6K sensor with 13+ stops of DR shooting raw data up to 60p in 2.40:1 ratio and 50p in full sensor use. All to a Samsung T5 SSD attached via USB-C. It takes timecode in for proper work on set (via the audio jack).



    IMHO, if Komodo isn't full frame or close to it (maybe 1.2x or so), it's going to have a hard time convincing people to pick it over the Blackmagic. It's just the lay of the land in the latter half of 2019. For $6K I have an entire shooting package including batteries, chargers, sync, monitor/recorder, cage and more. I love Red cameras and have been in the Red world since Red One #378, but this Blackmagic Pocket 6K is a game changer.

    Here's a still image sample of a chart test I did today (with my own LUT applied) for pixel peepers: Shot at BRAW Q5 at 24p ISO400 with the Sigma FF Cine 50mm T1.5 at around T4 (60MB PNG): http://www.visceralpsyche.com/misc/w...NR_C_2.3.3.png The image quality is pretty amazing!

    Cheers,

    Paul :)
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  8. #648  
    Senior Member Jeffrey Loewe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Leeming View Post
    I received my Blackmagic Pocket 6K today and rigged it up for cinema work. Let me tell you, this is, as pictured with everything aside from the lens, the realisation of 6K for $6K. This thing is INSANE for the money - a Super35, 6K sensor with 13+ stops of DR shooting raw data up to 60p in 2.40:1 ratio and 50p in full sensor use. All to a Samsung T5 SSD attached via USB-C. It takes timecode in for proper work on set (via the audio jack).



    IMHO, if Komodo isn't full frame or close to it (maybe 1.2x or so), it's going to have a hard time convincing people to pick it over the Blackmagic. It's just the lay of the land in the latter half of 2019. For $6K I have an entire shooting package including batteries, chargers, sync, monitor/recorder, cage and more. I love Red cameras and have been in the Red world since Red One #378, but this Blackmagic Pocket 6K is a game changer.

    Here's a still image sample of a chart test I did today (with my own LUT applied) for pixel peepers: Shot at BRAW Q5 at 24p ISO400 with the Sigma FF Cine 50mm T1.5 at around T4 (60MB PNG): http://www.visceralpsyche.com/misc/w...NR_C_2.3.3.png The image quality is pretty amazing!

    Cheers,

    Paul :)
    Nice Paul! Have you looked into the Lucaadapter? Curious on your thoughts of 120p at 2.8K if you have time to chime in.
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  9. #649  
    Senior Member Paul Leeming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Loewe View Post
    Nice Paul! Have you looked into the Lucaadapter? Curious on your thoughts of 120p at 2.8K if you have time to chime in.
    Haven't tested 120p yet sorry. I know of the LucaAdapter but coming from a Pocket 4K with the new BMPCC4k specific Speed Booster (which is the best one to date), I can really see the difference without extra glass in the way (extra resolution aside!). Metabones, though good, just isn't optically up there to eliminate the aberrations around the outer area of the coverage. I thought I'd have difficulty adjusting back to 1.55x after my 1.2x SB, but the 6K clarity is so much better that I don't think I'll go back to the 4K except as a B cam. If a proper tier 1 lens manufacturer like Sigma built a Speed Booster though, I might be persuaded...
    Paul Leeming
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  10. #650  
    Quote Originally Posted by David Johnson View Post
    I believe that Jarred (EDIT: Forgive me if I mis-quoted, can't find the source) said the biggest cost is in the number of sensors that don't meet spec. So for every Monstro sensor that's placed in a camera, x amount has to be tossed.

    I imagine there's a considerable amount of $$$ tied up in R&D and other soft costs associated with that camera.

    There's a whole lot more than cost of materials that go into the latest tech, especially when you're an innovator.
    I would say most of that is sensor design and manufacturing. All the other stuff is peanuts, especially when you spread the cost over many different DSMC2 bodies. One of the clear ways Blackmagic saves money is to reuse as much as the can. Reuse cooling, monitors, body, IR Cut, Sensor, etc. A lot of the same stuff is in all of their cameras.
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