Thread: Strange-clip-Monstro

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Jake,

    Yeah, +4 stops of overexposure , I think, should be the max that you should "professionally" try to recover a red file from presently. Thanks for responding back Jake!
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  2. #22  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Adrian,


    I must spend about 3 to 4 hours a day trying to uncover little "Easter eggs" in Red r3d files. And from downloading both Arri Raw and ProRes files from the Arri Sample page and from downloading Red red files from here, I'm trying to use WB, Temp., Tint, ISO, Lum Mix, Hue and luminance Curve to try get as good and image from Red r3d files as from Arri Alexa footage However, every camera manufacturer 's camera product has their pluses and minuses based on the individual companies image rendering philosophies .
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member Adrian Jebef's Avatar
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    Rand, I love that you Dig Deep!



    Only thing I would add is that "camera Company's image rendering philosophy" = the technical aspect of camera design that directly creates images. Speaking of it as philosophy seems to imply that everyone is on the same level playing field and that the only difference is their approach to the subject matter. Although in a general way this is true the practical results of having a camera in your hands tells a very different story. We can say that a scene contains a defined range of luminance and color information. We cannot say that every Arri, Red, Sony, etc camera can capture that complete defined range of information and then take a philosophical approach to how that information is then generated into an image.
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Rand, I love that you Dig Deep!
    Thanks man for that!


    Only thing I would add is that "camera Company's image rendering philosophy" = the technical aspect of camera design that directly creates images. Speaking of it as philosophy seems to imply that everyone is on the same level playing field and that the only difference is their approach to the subject matter. Although in a general way this is true the practical results of having a camera in your hands tells a very different story. We can say that a scene contains a defined range of luminance and color information. We cannot say that every Arri, Red, Sony, etc camera can capture that complete defined range of information and then take a philosophical approach to how that information is then generated into an image.

    I get what you are saying Adrian, some cameras are simply better in some aspect of image capture/ post than others. It would be like saying Red, Arri, Canon, Sony etc all have the same +6 stops of Highlight recovery, the same low light capabilities , the same distributed dynamic range and the same skintone rendering they just each chose different Log to Rec709/ Rec2020 tranform luts to get a different "look".

    I guess I could have done a better job of describing what I meant. Ha Ha Ha
    Last edited by rand thompson; 08-05-2019 at 06:44 PM.
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member Gaston Fazio's Avatar
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    I'm really curious about what Graeme Nattress has to add here...

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  6. #26  
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    Okay, sorry that I’m still unclear, but (other than Jake B) are you guys saying if I shoot something at 5000K, reduce that temp to 1800K in RCXp/metadata, then use an adjustment in Resolve/Baselight/et al, to warm it back up to a ~5000K “look”, it will actually have a noticeably better highlight recovery (up to 1.5stops more)?

    And is this with all RED sensors or like Helium onward?
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  7. #27  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Mike,


    First, you obviously have to decrease Exposure to whatever level you need it to be.

    Next, 1800K is way too low and will actually bring back the blown highlights. For Monstro its a 3000 to 3100K Temp with or without a mild tint adjust of a plus 4.00 to 12.000 with a correction of the WB at this point, makes only a minor difference if you use tint. And for Helium and Gemini a 3000 to 3100k Temp with a necessary Tint of from plus 15.000 to 26.000 with a correction of the WB at this point.


    Also, after testing out some old footage, I believe it only has to have a higher Temp than about 3200K to work , but double check me on this. All the overexposed r3ds I have are from 5000k to 5600k.


    This method only recovers blown skin tones and some other areas up to a point and is not meant to be a solution for a grossly overexposed image. I believe Red R3d files should only be recovered up to a max +4 stops of overexposure. Although the +5 stops overexposed image Aaron made available could be recovered somewhat, the colors were negatively affected in the process.
    Last edited by rand thompson; 08-05-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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  8. #28  
    Senior Member David J. Buchanan's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't get it either.

    Are y'all saying the dynamic range is better in tungsten light vs daylight? And also, does any other camera have this weird issue? This is the first I have ever heard about this.
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  9. #29  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Sorry about the late reply, just got in from an early call.

    What you are seeing is the Highlight Extension Algorithm attempting to bring detail back in on over exposed material. Remember, in camera, this footage is indicated as clipped, and there's an extreme white balance adjustment occurring. In this scenario, if you're highlight is that far gone and you need to bring some life back into it, I'd aim for a post color correction/grade solution as Jake mentioned. What I like to do on footage really depends on a shot by shot basis from all cameras when clipping occurs in not-so-ideal areas. Usually some combination of a slight desaturation, colorization, or even retuning the highlight roll-off to a degree. For those used to film, the general bias of the base stock is often what you see when clipped. If not brought to white, you end up with the rather common yellow/peach highlight or something closer to a light cyan depending on what's going on. A lot of earlier films of the 80s and 90s also went a bit more to the pink magenta side of things, but the yellow/cyan world won out big time when timing a project.

    Ideally when filming, you don't overexpose so grossly on your subject matter of course.

    Here are examples of properly exposed versus over exposed footage with merely the metadata white balance moving around.




    Hope that explains what's going on.


    *edit before dinner - Most other cameras do a hard ramp to desat to white no matter the color the area of overexposure. Some go to a purple/magenta space, light pink or whatever. For those of us familiar with the old DRX tuning ability we would adjust the clipped information's hue to ideally land on something that worked best with the material.
    Last edited by Phil Holland; 08-05-2019 at 07:20 PM.
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  10. #30  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    David,

    No, not at all. Just that at a certain color temp for monstro and a certain Color Temp and Tint for Helium and Gemini, that if you have footage that is overexposed and conventional methods for correcting it don't work there may be an alternative. Only you can decide if all the effort and the results are usable to you for professional use.

    Plus 4 stops of overexposure has been demonstrated to be the limit for recoverability of highlights for Red R3d files without really affecting color. Recovering +5 stops over will negatively affect color to some extent. But you can determine if the affect on color is or isn't worth it to possibly recover more highlight info.
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