Thread: Monstro ISO

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  1. #11  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacob.schwarz View Post
    It would be great Phil if you made something like this, or if Red did. I was talking to a Arri "fanboy". and he showed me this and I thought it looked super helpful.
    Heh. I've produced actual patches w/ data sampled, but I can whip up one of those in Photoshop.

    Or actually.

    I have a better idea.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Heh. I've produced actual patches w/ data sampled, but I can whip up one of those in Photoshop.

    Or actually.

    I have a better idea.
    Pls Phil. Would be a nice reference to have on hand.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann View Post
    For clarity's sake, a production should use ONE calibration at a time.
    I know, but Peter was matching a Monstro to a DXL2, so I was curious what the DXL2 does by default (and/or how much brighter that'd be over ISO Cal 1/ISO800)... To complicate it further, I'm still rocking Dragon, which is ISOCal1/800 (aka meters at ISO400), so I'm curious to see if it'd play at something closer to DXL2. But if DXL2 is ISO Cal 2 and ISO1600 recommended, that'd be ISO3200 on ISOCal1 (aka not gonna happen on Dragon).

    Also, Phil made this for Weapon 6k:



    But I agree, those Arri over/under vs ISO graphs are way easier to follow/read, and they've been available since ALEV3 launched. Even BMD has them for Pocket 4k (even over/under at ISO800 and 4000) and Pocket 6k (even over/under at ISO640 and 3200).
    Last edited by Mike P.; 10-21-2019 at 03:21 PM.
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  4. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Heh. I've produced actual patches w/ data sampled, but I can whip up one of those in Photoshop.

    Or actually.

    I have a better idea.
    You are the best!
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  5. #15  
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    Forgive my ignorance and thank you for all the response.

    To be clear is the Monstro already at ISO Calibration 2 by default with no option for Calibration 1? Will I need to have my AC at checkout even worry to check if its in that calibration? In other words was the whole ISO 1 vs 2 calibration just something specific to the Helium and the Monstro's been ISO 2 calibration since the get go.

    Thank you
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  6. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony DeRose View Post
    Forgive my ignorance and thank you for all the response.

    To be clear is the Monstro already at ISO Calibration 2 by default with no option for Calibration 1?
    Documentation makes clear that calibration is a parameter you can set. The firmware defaults to Calibration 2, but you can change it if you are sentimental (or semi-mental).

    Will I need to have my AC at checkout even worry to check if its in that calibration?
    Of course. Your AC should check all the parameters that can result in error if not set correctly.

    In other words was the whole ISO 1 vs 2 calibration just something specific to the Helium and the Monstro's been ISO 2 calibration since the get go.
    To their, ahem, credit, RED acknowledges that they were off by a full stop when they advertised the ISO ratings of their first few sensors. They cleaned up the mistake via a software fix, and as a parameter that can be set. It is possible today in 2019 to make the latest RED camera as untruthful about ISO calibration as the original RED ONE, by using Calibration 1. It is also possible to set it to Calibration 2, and have something that largely agrees with what light meters have been telling us for the past 50 years. You are free to choose your own adventure every time you prepare for a shoot.
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  7. #17  
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    Probably the only reason they’ve kept ISO Cal 1 in DSMC2 is to be able to match pre-Unified DSMC2/DSMC1/R1 cameras that didn’t ship with ISO Cal 2. And yes, it’s annoying; I seem to recall even R1 camera tests mentioning that REDs were metering almost exactly one stop darker than every other camera, so they should’ve fixed it then.

    At the introduction of ISO Cal 2, I would’ve gone a step further -- updated all cameras to use ISO Cal 2 (and include RWG/LOG3G10, which is only available in DSMC1 Dragon onward [not MX]). And make getting to ISO Cal 1 somewhat difficult/buried in the menus.

    That said, there are probably a few logistical reasons why they didn’t. Specifically, not everyone updates their firmware, and pre-DSMC2 cameras get super noisy at ISO1600 (aka ISO Cal 2 at 800, which is what most people still rate REDs at)... plus even though it’s the “same” sensitivity, no one wants to see that their camera is actually an ISO400 camera, after years of having “ISO800” recommended.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 11-03-2019 at 12:02 PM.
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  8. #18  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    The ISO Calibration across different manufacturers is not very regulated. Mainly what transpired was frustration between brands if people were familiar and/or working with other systems. This mainly manifested in the unique differences between each camera's "standard look" where each tone curve and as it relates to 18% gray was slightly different. Which is still moderately true to this day btw.

    The way we counter acted this variance on set was to either create a LUT or look and use it in camera, in the world of RED and specificly compared to the standard Rec.709 Arri look it was common to ISO up 1 stop or open the lens a stop, actually it was somewhere between a stop or 2/3rds. This was not an issue on productions that made custom looks between cameras.

    Either way, RED's solution was to eventually create this ISO Cal for newer DSMC2 sensor tech. One of the other interesting things to note since IPP2's initial release. By default it started out with an Output Tone Map of Medium with a Highlight Roll-Off of Medium as well, which was similar in tonality to RED's previous default curve. Now IPP2 defaults to an OTM of Low and HRO of Soft to moderately go with the trend of imagery from the last few years. Generally all the default OTMs meter around 18% accurately. Always good to test. Meters are also a minefield of variance.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Weapon 8K VV Monstro Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  9. #19  
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    Thank you all again.

    If I am set for ISO Calibration 2 on the Monstro at 640-800 ISO that should be a pretty clean image, correct?

    I believe my error in the past was I was going by the old recommendation of 1280 ISO on the helium not realizing the camera was set for ISO Cal 2 which essentially put me at a 2500 adding noise I did not want.
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  10. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony DeRose View Post
    Thank you all again.

    If I am set for ISO Calibration 2 on the Monstro at 640-800 ISO that should be a pretty clean image, correct?
    Yes, 800 should be fine.

    Going up without differing analog gain is a data-centric pink unicorn land and you just underexpose and stretch fewer bits more.

    It's not just the noise, it's the tonal depth also. And more importantly.
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