Thread: New Kippertie SSD.

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  1. #11  
    Senior Member John Marchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeMarkefors View Post
    Angelbird makes SSDs in high grade aluminum: https://www.angelbird.com/prod/ssd-wrk-1506/

    1TB SSD is 399 Euro.

    That price already includes all of the little things such as: having employees, manufacturing, testing their design, maintaining a website, offering standard warranties and so on... while covering their 'costs of doing business'. Angelbird has also been around for a while, I don't think they are known for being cheap and they seem to have a sustainable business model.

    From there, the discussion can center on differences in actual media costs (bulk) between 2.5" and NVMe and increased costs of making a mag fitted enclosure (let's be generous and say up to $10 per mag).

    Let's not be babies and whine about RED's pricing: it's a known factor for those who buy into the eco system. But let's be equally clear that there is NOTHING about the current pricing that has any relevance to actual costs of manufacture/distribution.
    Let's try more comparable products. Angelbird Atomos mastercaddy 2TB ~ 1500, Angelbird AVPro SSD 2TB ~1200

    Our gross margin is around 35%.
    I actually shared the math but deleted it- I shouldn't have to defend myself to that degree over something priced both fairly and in line with comparable products.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marchant View Post
    Let's try more comparable products.
    John, I think your mag seems like excellent value in the RED eco system—it's a great offering.

    My post is more about owning up to what is being offered: "we make this, it costs this much". Done. Tell customers to put on their 'big boy' pants and go to work. It's for commercial use right? The end customer is paying anyway.

    But, and this is not directed at KipperTie, don't put a $400 drive in a basic enclosure, sell it for $2500 and say the reason for that is that you had 20 Pakistani families, siblings and all, constantly mount and unmount the mags over a 3 year period "to make absolutely sure they wouldn't fall out when the camera is held at an angle".

    My only question to you John, would be what principle exactly makes you stay away from RED's own mag sizes? Why not offer a 1TB mag for $800-ish?

    That would be a nice product compared to RED's $2350 960GB mag. It would fly off the shelves?
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member John Marchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeMarkefors View Post
    John, I think your mag seems like excellent value in the RED eco system—it's a great offering.

    My post is more about owning up to what is being offered: "we make this, it costs this much". Done. Tell customers to put on their 'big boy' pants and go to work. It's for commercial use right? The end customer is paying anyway.

    But, and this is not directed at KipperTie, don't put a $400 drive in a basic enclosure, sell it for $2500 and say the reason for that is that you had 20 Pakistani families, siblings and all, constantly mount and unmount the mags over a 3 year period "to make absolutely sure they wouldn't fall out when the camera is held at an angle".

    My only question to you John, would be what principle exactly makes you stay away from RED's own mag sizes? Why not offer a 1TB mag for $800-ish?

    That would be a nice product compared to RED's $2350 960GB mag. It would fly off the shelves?
    Specifics of our agreement with Red prohibit it. I'll share with you my detailed cost info - not as an 'I told you so' but as I know you're smart enough to appreciate the nuance.
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  4. #14  
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    Having seen the media launched in this forum, I took the opportunity to visit John and Kippertie. The product is extremely well made and robust looking. I also got to see the insides of it and see it working. In my view its an excellent product that will benefit us all and particularly those that shoot for long periods in difficult conditions at high frame rates.
    The fact it is endorsed and approved by RED shouldn't be overlooked because as Grahame says, the rushes are the most important thing apart from safety on location. A professional must be in no doubt whatsoever about the integrity and security of their digital media. Ohh and the cost, its cheap when you consider size of storage and peace of mind..
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member AndreeMarkefors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Marchant View Post
    Specifics of our agreement with Red prohibit it. I'll share with you my detailed cost info - not as an 'I told you so' but as I know you're smart enough to appreciate the nuance.
    As you yourself said above—and what I completely agree with is—you don't owe me anything and you don't have anything to prove to me/us. Your 2TB mag is already redrawing the map in terms of what's possible.

    But I'm guessing your agreement with RED, in order for you to get their blessing, has a few things in place in order to not disrupt their media business completely. I am guessing you are being limited in your options, not because there is any doubt in your manufacturing skills, but because otherwise you could potentially offer something that would be "too good", in relative terms.

    EDIT: I realise it's unfortunate that I reply to a thread that started with a statement of you applying large margins a la RED to your mags. But that is not the side I come down on, and not how I entered the thread. Just wanted to clear that up. I didn't write in defence of that.
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member John Marchant's Avatar
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    All friends here :)
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Somewhere between people thinking mags should be $300-$400 and getting media that's:
    - in a well designed slot that doesn't pop out (betcha that was tested a whole bunch)
    - within a rugged designed metal housing protecting your media (literally the most important thing on any shoot after safety)
    - Which I believe is machined aluminum in KipperTie's case.
    - thoroughly tested in operational conditions both in read/write lifespan as well as weather conditions
    - has hand assembled components including the thermal pads to keep the media from melting in the enclosure (the housing is the heat sink)
    - the core cost of the additional components outside of the base media
    - a manufacturer's warranty on top of the base media warranty
    - packaging, quality control, employee benefits, marketing, warehouse storage, various taxes, etc...
    - support for potential data recovery, creating/supporting data recovery tools (i.e. programmers and employees)
    - (I haven't received my order, but it sounds like they come in some sort of carrying case per mag or 4-pack)
    - predictable overages required for costumer support/product support/general product ecosystem

    Is the price you are experiencing. In KipperTie's case that's $1,735.17 USD for a 2TB mag as whatever their business model is that allows for the wages for the employees and vendor costs as well as turning a profit per unit for expected units sold to make back the effort into producing them.

    This is the same for RED too or any product really.

    I purchased 2TB KT Longtakes because they suit my production needs, mainly for helicopter shoots. Didn't think I'd actually need more media anytime soon for that matter, but they solve a common problem for me: landing and changing mags. They are priced rather well IMO. And though 2TB NVMe Codex drive with a a slightly higher base media cost and different technology will run you about $7,000 USD, we sit here discussing this.

    The biggest thing RED has done to address this is changing the media costs. Which apparently was a planned thing, though it happened significantly earlier than their years end pricing adjustments. Not to mention Komodo itself fitting into the price point and camera type to use non-proprietary CFAST 2.0 media, of which a good quality 1TB cards is about $1,100 USD.

    The question is, how much do you think mags should actually cost considering the above? It costs money to keep the lights on and support an international business.


    I'm not actually goading or coy here, but I am curious what people think is fair versus what they perceive it would require to make a profit worth making a product in the first place?

    For a 2TB mag like KipperTie's is that $600, $800, $1200, $1600, or?

    I make a few metal products and know the cost to produce that on smaller runs, in fact you can make a fairly educated guess on what all the components actually cost in there. Then it's the other costs I referenced above.

    I don't like spending money as much as the next guy, but it's just getting weird at this point. I'm mostly genuinely curious what people think things should actually cost and if they could be realistically manufactured and supported at those prices particularly for companies based out the US, UK, EU, etc.....
    1200 sounds good.

    As for price of red drives, AFTER JINN VIDEOS reveal they are normal and old ssds, yes halve the price (as they've done with cameras) or give the option to use out own drives in a housing.

    To answer two posts at once, as Andree says Red is known for their high price, and I've never had a problem with that, but I also believed redmags were special incredible little things. Now that it's been revealed a bit what's really going on, I would assume there would be a real world adjustment. I would never use jinnmag ever but damn is it ridiculous to continue on business as usual. People have lost faith for a reason.
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  8. #18  
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    I love Kippertie and their products look amazing.

    As Andree suggested this is more a question to Red which has 'been answered' I guess but not really. John is at the mercy of that but also he is making a good product.

    I was simply shocked that 'here we go again' with the media pricing. And no one addressed it.
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  9. #19  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dease View Post
    I love Kippertie and their products look amazing.

    As Andree suggested this is more a question to Red which has 'been answered' I guess but not really. John is at the mercy of that but also he is making a good product.

    I was simply shocked that 'here we go again' with the media pricing. And no one addressed it.
    We'll never know RED's cost breakdown and they don't need to provide it really, and that was alarmingly transparent from John and even brought some additional expenses into the I truly forgot about, but everybody forgets about "time". Though the current street price for the 1TB base media is less these days, remember that when RED bought them and bought them in bulk no less the 1TB drives were more expensive than what John's putting into the Longtakes even.

    To add to matters is RED is a large company that takes into consideration all costs of cameras and accessories into their business strategy and margins. The myopic focus on just the base media cost is overlooking the cost of every other thing possible along the way.
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  10. #20  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dease View Post
    1200 sounds good.
    There is where the expectation versus the reality becomes rather at odds with each other. Though I don't think John should re-post his costs because it was a rather thorough breakdown, the price you are asking is below the cost of even making these. Meaning he would physically lose money on the product. That's not how staying in business works.

    There's certainly ways to make things cheaper, which we've "seen", but that's not what's going on here.
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