Thread: Improving the camera image. The Transformation. Pt.3

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  1. #11  
    What is the resulting colorspace/gamma after primer? In case we want to do inverse transformation to RWG/LOG3G10?
    Michael Tiemann, Chapel Hill NC

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  2. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tiemann View Post
    What is the resulting colorspace/gamma after primer? In case we want to do inverse transformation to RWG/LOG3G10?
    Theese are not typical output colour space/gamma conversions.
    These make the signal "behave" properly inside 709, 2.2
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  3. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    Thanks for the infos. How do you applie it?
    In camera when shooting ipp2 (to embed it in the prores) or only in post (first node)?
    In camera in IPP2 output transforms are locked (unlike in RCX) so you have to go through "Legacy" to clear the output. Colour science is the same.

    In post I usually leave one or two nodes before the Primer to leave room for pasting node settings per shot within the project. (WB/offset/general tweaks etc.) Depends on what you want to do, log grading pre-conversion has one way of doing things, post-lut work another.
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  4. #14  
    I added few more S1H test examples online:


    http://omeneo.com/primers/panasonic/


    Things to check in these examples:

    - Tonal harmony
    - Subtle tonalities
    - Shadow definition
    - Image depth
    - Volume
    - Transition to extremes
    - High luminance saturation and stability


    Typically, all standard image transformations for these types of usages, whether transform or lattice based, do something good while messing up something else, which manifests with issues to various image aspects and causes problems in grading. This and this seems difficult to pull off with the image because of something that's off and when you compensate that something, something else messes up.

    It took a few thousands of hours with immense complexity of inter-dependent variables for a) finding out what is off b) how it should be right and c) how to properly achieve that so it works every time.

    When the image signal is "ironed" with Primers, nothing is achieved at the cost of messing up something else.

    In comparisons like these, things seem as if they "sink in" and as if you lifted a veil from the image.
    Various differences in particulars between various cameras, similar effect when you compare the results. Keep in mind this is not graded imagery to achieve this look, but a product of a log origin transformation applied to the material.


    More stuff coming...
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member Patrick Tresch's Avatar
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    Hello Hrvoje,

    I was looking at your primer for Sony A cameras. (I use the A7 mkIII wich ins't in your batch but I would assume it's close to the A7s2?) and was wondering why you didn't use the Slog2/S-gamut as base setting? Did you find the other settings giving you a better starting point?

    Thanks

    Pat
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  6. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    Hello Hrvoje,

    I was looking at your primer for Sony A cameras. (I use the A7 mkIII wich ins't in your batch but I would assume it's close to the A7s2?) and was wondering why you didn't use the Slog2/S-gamut as base setting? Did you find the other settings giving you a better starting point?

    Thanks

    Pat
    I haven't tested A7III yet so cannot confirm its response.
    For Sony stills cams there is both Cine4 gamma set and S-Log2 set. We didn't go with S-Gamut in all cases for the same reason there is Cine4 gamma set and no S-Log3 set, because of saturation distribution re-mapping is needed from 8 bit material, where you get in problems quickly. So, we check the optimal response you can tweak in camera before compression, for the proper transformation to start from that basis.

    Write to Sony to open up 10 bits and S-Log3 can open a stop more. :)


    No Primers for Cinegammas on GH5 and S1H for example, needless waste of DR.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    I added few more S1H test examples online:


    http://omeneo.com/primers/panasonic/


    Things to check in these examples:

    - Tonal harmony
    - Subtle tonalities
    - Shadow definition
    - Image depth
    - Volume
    - Transition to extremes
    - High luminance saturation and stability


    Typically, all standard image transformations for these types of usages, whether transform or lattice based, do something good while messing up something else, which manifests with issues to various image aspects and causes problems in grading. This and this seems difficult to pull off with the image because of something that's off and when you compensate that something, something else messes up.

    It took a few thousands of hours with immense complexity of inter-dependent variables for a) finding out what is off b) how it should be right and c) how to properly achieve that so it works every time.

    When the image signal is "ironed" with Primers, nothing is achieved at the cost of messing up something else.

    In comparisons like these, things seem as if they "sink in" and as if you lifted a veil from the image.
    Various differences in particulars between various cameras, similar effect when you compare the results. Keep in mind this is not graded imagery to achieve this look, but a product of a log origin transformation applied to the material.


    More stuff coming...


    Very nice work! Akin to what's done for BMPCC 4K, and also coming for other cameras here: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic...xa-conversion/
    I guess we finally have people really understanding how to tweak digital sensor response. When I first read Steve Yedlin's ideas on how cameras should be treated as just data collection machines with later performing necessary transformations/individual color interpolations to achieve the required image I wondered how long will it take for this to spread...
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  8. #18  
    Not the same thing and scene dependent but cool stuff.

    Alexa also has imperfections btw. Its 709 mapping as well on top of that. Not just intentional ones. ;)
    Some stuff brakes and causes problems.

    That's why Primers exist.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
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  9. #19  
    Sunrise.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dfe8tCcHnKY



    Heureka.


    Thankful.





    Creatives....rejoice.




    ...
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Jacobo Martinez's Avatar
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