Thread: Helium or Gemini?

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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Pretty much a question I get asked a few times a week and there really hasn't been one real trend or another sprouting from it.

    So, here's some good info.

    First and format, take a look at this format size comparison:
    http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/...&focalLengths=

    I'll start with frame rate, you've seen the max formats above and you know what they top out at, but also keep in mind that at 5K that have the same max frame rates at two very different format sizes, here's both 5K FF formats:
    http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/...&focalLengths=

    That's where a lot of peeps get sort of stuck because that crop on Helium is notable, essentially a bit smaller than Academy 35mm.


    Quick summary of my personal take:

    Gemini Pros
    - Better full height anamorphic support
    - Cleaner in Low Light compared to Helium
    - Larger format at 5K and larger format at max FPS

    Helium Pros
    - 8K Resolution capable at up to 60p
    - 8K to 4K downsample is a sexy thing IMO
    - It is the highest resolution S35 sensor in a digital cinema camera


    I wouldn't say Helium is really "bad" in low light, but more or less the breakdown is Monstro is the cleanest at max res and then it goes to Gemini and likely the newer Dragon 6K option and then Helium in terms of cleanliness. Haven't tested out the latest Dragon 6K, it's just hitting people now, but it's already pretty good in low light at 5K and 6K.

    Question, the ”new dragon6k DSMC2” is it any different than my dragon 6k dsmc2 that I got when dsmc2 just came out? Its the same no?

    Not to derail the thread and I have not really followed the developments of dragon. But as i understand later after helium release dragon was software limited to 5k and quite resently that limitation was taken out. But all trough its the same dragon camera as was the first dsmc2 camera to be released, no?
    Björn Benckert
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Leone View Post
    why?
    Because they are not designed for 8K but creamy lovable flattering cinematic image.

    You can't have everything. Cine zooms speedboosted to T2 and 8K. No. :)

    Angie EZ + Gemini are a great combo.
    Also, Gemini LL @ ISO3200 + T2 gives a lot of options in light challenging situations.
    With Heliium I wouldn't go beyond 1600. NR softens the image and defeats the purpose of 8K.
    For Helium resolution, you need sharp primes to be able to capture it. In which case the image aesthetic also changes. You asked technical questions but the difference between cameras is in aesthetic as well. Additionally depending on the glass. Gemini + Angies EZ has wonderful cinematic aesthetic.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Because they are not designed for 8K but creamy lovable flattering cinematic image.

    You can't have everything. Cine zooms speedboosted to T2 and 8K. No. :)

    Angie EZ + Gemini are a great combo.
    Also, Gemini LL @ ISO3200 + T2 gives a lot of options in light challenging situations.
    With Heliium I wouldn't go beyond 1600. NR softens the image and defeats the purpose of 8K.
    For Helium resolution, you need sharp primes to be able to capture it. In which case the image aesthetic also changes. You asked technical questions but the difference between cameras is in aesthetic as well. Additionally depending on the glass. Gemini + Angies EZ has wonderful cinematic aesthetic.
    totally agree with you !
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  4. #24  
    When it comes to Aestetic I rate them in the following order in terms of color rendition.

    monstro
    dragon
    Gemini
    helium


    This is just my findings, lot of people likely think differently.

    The sensor size of Gemini is to me more appealing than what dragon its only about 2 mm taller so not much but a tiny bit more to use with anas. Helium is a great camera but the oddities in the highlights and the relatively large rolling shutter for a s35 camera, to me makes it for most occasions less attractive. Still I totally understand that people like it for certain lenses and setups. But personally I simply rather crop down monstro to 6k than shoot Helium. Dragon always look great but needs more light to do so than Gemini and monstro.

    To me they are all priced very well, or its difficult to say one is more price worthy than the other. So its all depending what you will use it for. Then there is Komodo... it kind of reck the party for the DSMC2 line as private owned / use cameras. If its as good as I think it is it will likely change the industry quite a bit.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    VFX / Flame / Motion capture / Monstro
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Because they are not designed for 8K but creamy lovable flattering cinematic image.

    You can't have everything. Cine zooms speedboosted to T2 and 8K. No. :)

    Angie EZ + Gemini are a great combo.
    Also, Gemini LL @ ISO3200 + T2 gives a lot of options in light challenging situations.
    With Heliium I wouldn't go beyond 1600. NR softens the image and defeats the purpose of 8K.
    For Helium resolution, you need sharp primes to be able to capture it. In which case the image aesthetic also changes. You asked technical questions but the difference between cameras is in aesthetic as well. Additionally depending on the glass. Gemini + Angies EZ has wonderful cinematic aesthetic.
    I agree about the need for sharp glass. Some zooms will still show the full resolution.
    The trick I find myself is being able to pull focus correctly when the Red display is 2k, but it can be done.

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  6. #26  
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    I know this is kind of off topic, but have you considered Komodo instead? It will ultimately be much cheaper and (unless there are any unforeseen shortcomings) it looks like Komodo could end up doing to the RED line-up what the Mini/Mini LF did to the Alexa line-up (as in, no one shoots on the bigger bros unless the Minis are all rented out.)

    Put another way, for the price of just the *upgrade* to Helium ($20k)/Gemini($15k), you could buy 3x/2x shootable Komodo pkgs *and still keep your Scarlet-W*... And with Global Shutter, 6k, (potentially) ISO5000 useable, 2lbs, way lower power requirements, phase detect autofocus, Speedbooster support for FF35 FOV (and +1 stop of light), built-in display, non-proprietary media, I think a lot of RED-based production will opt to shoot on Komodo moving forward (in the same way Minis are used over full-sized Alexas despite being fps limited). That is, unless Komodo only has 12stops of DR or 12:1 compression (or you absolutely *need* 8k or high fps).

    Sorry for throwing a wrench in the gears. I mean, if it were 12mths before Komodo lands and it was $10k+, that'd give you a year of recuperation and a much smaller price delta... but I think it's only ~4 months away and Jarred was aiming for a ~$6k price point (give or take $1k with/without a Hydrogen).
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  7. #27  
    Thanks for your comment Mike.
    My idea now is to send my scarlet-w for trade in to dragon x, and then another trade in for gemini or helium.
    Komodo will be amazing and maybe could be a perfect B cam for drone (for example)
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Leone View Post
    Thanks for your comment Gabriel! Why you define the Gemini more versatile? Helium could be perfect for me but there are 2 important reasons: low light is really too terrible compared with Gemini? I coming from the Scarlet-w wich is not a real good choice for low light, the other question is the crop factor, with 7k or 6k resolution the Helium has a terrible crop..these are the only 2 points where i still not 100% sure.
    You summed it up perfectly for yourself. Gemini is your best bet. Less crop, can handle a broader range of light environments. It's still plenty sharp.
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  9. #29  
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    I am do to upgrade and I am going through the same debate. I have been shooting on the Helium quite a bit the last few weeks and I think that’s my next move. For run and gun lowlight I will have the Komodo
    Scarlet-W 9706
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Lyles View Post
    I am do to upgrade and I am going through the same debate. I have been shooting on the Helium quite a bit the last few weeks and I think that’s my next move. For run and gun lowlight I will have the Komodo
    good, but are we sure wich Komodo can work good in low light?
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