View Poll Results: Which cameras color do you prefer form the Full Frame Cinema Shootout 2020

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  • 1

    54 73.97%
  • 2

    2 2.74%
  • 3

    9 12.33%
  • 4

    2 2.74%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 6

    1 1.37%
  • 7

    3 4.11%
  • 8

    1 1.37%
  • 9

    1 1.37%

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  1. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    I have always shown how alexa mini Lf and Monstro is.
    I also said that they have the same dynamic and I proved it.
    Then it's up to each of us to understand how our own camera works.
    Nobody prevents you from putting 2 nd in front of Monstro to have the same highlights as ALexa mini LF, what is the problem?
    I honestly don't understand.
    But you can't improve the opposite unless you implement a denoise in the camera, this is what Arri did with mini Lf to earn something underneath and she simply realized that the competition was clearly better in the under-exposures.
    Monstro is actually cleaner and does not need.

    I think we are arguing without any sense and in a vicious circle ..

    And finally....
    Alexa mini works not because it is better in the highlights (nobody will burn its images with an over exposure of 2 stops) but because it is a very practical practice even compared to its older sisters.
    Small, silent, internal Nd, light and the color is the same as its sisters and now also in large format with a spectacular viewfinder and the whole menu is extremely responsive compared to RED .... Much much more practical and fast and very solid. And in the end it already has a good cinematic color out of the box using a normal ProRes that can be read and managed even by older PCs or Macs.


    I would have been curious to see what you said at the beginning of the test, which you preferred ... but you only got to the end of the games. ;)

    I am convinced that you like Monstro but by your nature you will never admit it heheh
    But we love you even if you hate RED eheheh, now we know you .;)
    On the contrary, I think the latest generation of RED cameras are quite good. I like the Monstro, Helium and Gemini. I much prefer them to the previous generations. The skin tone is improved, less noise in the shadows and general overall performance is really topnotch.

    So yes, we can be friends. I love you all too, in a geeky, cheeky kind-of-way.

    Now back to our vicious cycle. :-)

    My original choice was numbers 1 and 7. Mostly because of their performance in the +6 overexposure pull down. That said generally, overall I preferred the performance of number 1.

    As I do a considerable amount of grading for others I have found over time, that in general the Alexa has the greatest consistency in performance, is the easiest to correct and I am able to arrive at neutral performance when matching the same scene though having varied exposures. Operator error has presented on occasion well overexposed or underexposed shots and matching them to a normal baseline has often yielded great results. People frequently can't tell the difference. I am still, on occasion, surprised how well this works. Unfortunately, this is not my experience with most other cameras, including RED (though to a lesser extent today). I get much more color crossover and contrast issues with exposure shifts and I always have to jump through more hoops. Further, I can dig into the highlights with most Alexa footage in a way that I cannot seem to do with RED. Perhaps if you are shooting from the beginning with the intention of pulling down the highlights on RED cameras in the manner you suggest it can be compensated for, but that is not my experience and it can be problematic. At least with the Alexa no extra brain power is needed, which is helpful when the footage comes in and there has been a cock-up during shooting.

    The other thing that I see is that when it comes to Tungsten or mixed lighting sources, the veritable shit really hits the fan, especially where skin tones are concerned. Faces definitely lose their dimensionality as there is often less overall color information to work with. Once again I have found this can be a real problem with RED footage. However, as most test footage is shot in daylight it is difficult to convey this. What I like about the Sodium Vapor test is that it shows this issue. Number 1 has the greatest degree of color nuance in the face at the end of that shot. Which means that I can pull up more colors if needed and create greater dimensionality. On several other cameras, I know that I will have only a single wash of color and a slightly wooden appearance once I begin to correct them. I believe this to be true with the number 7 cam for instance.
    Last edited by C. Burkhart; 02-16-2020 at 03:34 AM.
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  2. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Burkhart View Post
    As I do a considerable amount of grading for others I have found over time, that in general the Alexa has the greatest consistency in performance, is the easiest to correct and I am able to arrive at neutral performance when matching the same scene though having varied exposures. Operator error has presented on occasion well overexposed or underexposed shots and matching them to a normal baseline has often yielded great results. People frequently can't tell the difference. I am still, on occasion, surprised how well this works. Unfortunately, this is not my experience with most other cameras, including RED (though to a lesser extent today). I get much more color crossover and contrast issues with exposure shifts and I always have to jump through more hoops. Further, I can dig into the highlights with most Alexa footage in a way that I cannot seem to do with RED. Perhaps if you are shooting from the beginning with the intention of pulling down the highlights on RED cameras in the manner you suggest it can be compensated for, but that is not my experience and it can be problematic. At least with the Alexa no extra brain power is needed, which is helpful when the footage comes in and there has been a cock-up during shooting.

    The other thing that I see is that when it comes to Tungsten or mixed lighting sources, the veritable shit really hits the fan, especially where skin tones are concerned. Faces definitely lose their dimensionality as there is often less overall color information to work with. Once again I have found this can be a real problem with RED footage. However, as most test footage is shot in daylight it is difficult to convey this. What I like about the Sodium Vapor test is that it shows this issue. Number 1 has the greatest degree of color nuance in the face at the end of that shot. Which means that I can pull up more colors if needed and create greater dimensionality. On several other cameras, I know that I will have only a single wash of color and a slightly wooden appearance once I begin to correct them. I believe this to be true with the number 7 cam for instance.

    All good points.

    Aaand luckily...most of what you are talking about are tonal issues which are not in the raw footage. : )
    And with proper transformation and normalized signal are not present.
    Obviously, sodium vapor cannot yield results as daylight, but classical digital issues with lost separation, nuances and detail and tonal inconsistencies are avoidable.

    With adequate exposure typically there is no lack of information, it just seems as there isn't in particular tonal range, due to the way the information is presented.
    Lack of information in literal sense is caused with lower recording quality and higher subjective "rating" & lower exposure, in visual by limited spectral coverage of the light source. Minimally affected by today's high quality sensors if they are exposed properly.

    In FX9 example, you are lacking more information with on board h.264 codec then anything from the sensor itself and it cannot match 16 bit r3d. Sensor factor is pratically negligible in that equation. Following the same logic, it is unrealistic to expect that shooting 10:1 for example, can give the same depth and lattitude compared to uncompressed raw.
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  3. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    4) Sigma FP is for stills
    So shocked by the comments about the Fp being a toy! Obviously it doesn't have the highlight recovery or tonal reproduction as the others in the list, but a toy? (I guess if you consider that underexposure flicker, but that's been fixed apparently). This test has convinced me to get one as a B-cam - it definitely has some limitations and is by no means perfect, but for a $2k camera *of that size* .. seems like an incredible speciality camera if you know when the right times are to use it.
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  4. #174  
    Senior Member Joe Walker's Avatar
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    I haven't posted on this forum in forever, lol, that being said, were the cameras in this test ever revealed? Am I missing anything?
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  5. #175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Weinberg View Post
    So shocked by the comments about the Fp being a toy! Obviously it doesn't have the highlight recovery or tonal reproduction as the others in the list, but a toy? (I guess if you consider that underexposure flicker, but that's been fixed apparently). This test has convinced me to get one as a B-cam - it definitely has some limitations and is by no means perfect, but for a $2k camera *of that size* .. seems like an incredible speciality camera if you know when the right times are to use it.
    Oh I'm not saying it's not an amazing camera. For stills and many other things and even an insert cam it's incredible. It's just not fair to compare it video wise to cameras that are 50-100K.
    Nick Morrison
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  6. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Oh I'm not saying it's not an amazing camera. For stills and many other things and even an insert cam it's incredible. It's just not fair to compare it video wise to cameras that are 50-100K.
    Oh no, definitely not fair. Also looks like I quoted the wrong person saying it was a toy :P Honestly the thing I'm most excited about with the Fp is that I definitely believe in the whole 'the best camera is the one you have with you' thing, and I can just see having that with me literally at all times.. can't just throw my Gemini in a messenger bag..
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  7. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Weinberg View Post
    So shocked by the comments about the Fp being a toy! Obviously it doesn't have the highlight recovery or tonal reproduction as the others in the list, but a toy? (I guess if you consider that underexposure flicker, but that's been fixed apparently).
    With log things should improve.
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  8. #178  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Walker View Post
    I haven't posted on this forum in forever, lol, that being said, were the cameras in this test ever revealed? Am I missing anything?
    I updated the original post.
    "All art is deception."

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  9. #179  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evin Grant View Post
    I updated the original post.
    Thanks for doing all of this Evin.
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  10. #180  
    REDuser Sponsor Martin Stevens's Avatar
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    Thanks Evin. When are you going to post a labeled version of the video?
    Regards,
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    Producer and Director at Metaphoric Pictures Corporation.
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