View Poll Results: Which cameras color do you prefer form the Full Frame Cinema Shootout 2020

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1

    54 73.97%
  • 2

    2 2.74%
  • 3

    9 12.33%
  • 4

    2 2.74%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 6

    1 1.37%
  • 7

    3 4.11%
  • 8

    1 1.37%
  • 9

    1 1.37%

  Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: Full Frame Cinema Shootout 2020...

Reply to Thread
Page 17 of 20 FirstFirst ... 71314151617181920 LastLast
Results 161 to 170 of 191
  1. #161  
    Senior Member Kemalettin Sert's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles CA
    Posts
    3,293
    6 stop Underexpose test and monstro holds the best color retention and why Gemini and helium is so bad? Gemini looks way too much blue (noise) and Helium is greenish.
    EPIC-X DRAGON 7424
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #162  
    Well because creative look LUTs are not normalized and reference and when you dig 6 stops under you accentuate the imperfections, of course.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #163  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    424
    Quote Originally Posted by luigivaltulini View Post
    The Lightiron lut introduces much more noise into the underexposures on Monstro. But also true that it helps to remove a lot of green in normal exposures.
    I showed it in some of my posts.
    So who says that ALexa mini Lf is better than Monstro in the under exposures has not had the opportunity to personally try these two cameras next to it.
    The answer is simply NO, at least not the noise reduction on ALexa mini Lf.
    Monstro reproduces the best colors, or rather say captures the scene exactly as your eye is looking at the moment, While Alexa mini Lf does not, but reproduces an image with a more cinematic character out of the box, this is very popular with people as well as having a good skin tone.

    I am sorry to say but who does not like Monstro to some serious problem with RED or something against this company. And in this forum there are several and they appear only at the end of the test when the results have already been made public.

    Honestly, out of this test context, anyone who would have seen this footage only 1 or 2 times would not have been able to say what camera it was.

    We should do like Hrvoje who teaches us some approaches to sensors and their characteristics.
    It is debatable whether the Mini LF is better than the Monstro in underexposure. However, where it is not debatable and the Mini is clearly better is in the overexposure. Curious you don't mention this in your post. Nothing touches it. Almost looks normal when brought down. And that in fact is it's biggest draw. Always has been. That is why almost 75% here prefer it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #164  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    11,483
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Burkhart View Post
    It is debatable whether the Mini LF is better than the Monstro in underexposure.
    No need for a debate really. We've seen now with several tests where things land in regards to that.

    Alev III = More Highlight Detail at ISO 800
    Monstro = More Shadow Detail at ISO 800

    This more or less highlights the variance in the ecosystem, but also alludes to the different types of sensor technologies used as well.

    The most interesting thing however is what happens when you start rating Monstro at something like ISO 1280 or 1600. In particular with the Standard or Low Light Optimized OLPFs. The Skin Tone Highlight OLPF as well, but ISO 1600 might be too noisy for some with that combo. Just depends, but you certainly will get even more up there with that combo.

    ISO 800 is always just the base recommendation. RED promotes a usable range of 250-3200 ISO and that is what defaults in the camera. I know people who only shoot 250. I know people who shoot all over the place. Many just stick with 800. Some explore the whole world of ISO ratings. I sort of go by a project by project basis, occasionally scene by scene. My display manufacturing clients only want super glass clean images for instance. But narrative I'm often at ISO 400-1600 and mostly working with the STH even.

    When I was working with the LF for a couple months I was often rating it at 400 for cleaner shadows for a 4K finish as well. You can also see this


    Just to expand on some other notable differences here. You can see the unique fingerprint of each sensor's baseline calibration as well as their color science filter's impact on the image. It's also neat seeing some of the different takes on tone mapping, but everybody seems to be aiming at a similar target there.

    In practice the Alev III filter is a bit more like RED's Standard and Low Light. The Venice however is closer to the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF, which is interesting in itself, but it's also different.

    Not hijacking Evin's thread, but this chart has the "measured 3 ways" latitude above and below 18% Gray across the ISO Range. You want that extra stop or two in the highlights, you know how to get it. Then it's a question of the shadows and I'll leave that up to whatever you discover down there :)
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #165  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    424
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    No need for a debate really. We've seen now with several tests where things land in regards to that.

    Alev III = More Highlight Detail at ISO 800
    Monstro = More Shadow Detail at ISO 800

    This more or less highlights the variance in the ecosystem, but also alludes to the different types of sensor technologies used as well.
    I would essentially agree with this. RED's strong point has always been the latitude below midpoint. However, I have found that in terms of highlight retention, which for me is often much more difficult to deal with than shadow retention (easier to push up shadows and de-noise than recover what is not there in the highlights), the Alexa still is king. Further, I also often see color and contrast shifts when compensating for exposure issues on other cameras in post and yet the Arri footage still maintains it's neutrality and detail when corrected. I think this test once again underlines this. Extraordinary.
    Last edited by C. Burkhart; 02-15-2020 at 03:05 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #166  
    Senior Member luigivaltulini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Switzerland- LUGANO
    Posts
    2,493
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Burkhart View Post
    It is debatable whether the Mini LF is better than the Monstro in underexposure. However, where it is not debatable and the Mini is clearly better is in the overexposure. Curious you don't mention this in your post. Nothing touches it. Almost looks normal when brought down. And that in fact is it's biggest draw. Always has been. That is why almost 75% here prefer it.
    I have always shown how alexa mini Lf and Monstro is.
    I also said that they have the same dynamic and I proved it.
    Then it's up to each of us to understand how our own camera works.
    Nobody prevents you from putting 2 nd in front of Monstro to have the same highlights as ALexa mini LF, what is the problem?
    I honestly don't understand.
    But you can't improve the opposite unless you implement a denoise in the camera, this is what Arri did with mini Lf to earn something underneath and she simply realized that the competition was clearly better in the under-exposures.
    Monstro is actually cleaner and does not need.

    I think we are arguing without any sense and in a vicious circle ..

    And finally....
    Alexa mini works not because it is better in the highlights (nobody will burn its images with an over exposure of 2 stops) but because it is a very practical practice even compared to its older sisters.
    Small, silent, internal Nd, light and the color is the same as its sisters and now also in large format with a spectacular viewfinder and the whole menu is extremely responsive compared to RED .... Much much more practical and fast and very solid. And in the end it already has a good cinematic color out of the box using a normal ProRes that can be read and managed even by older PCs or Macs.


    I would have been curious to see what you said at the beginning of the test, which you preferred ... but you only got to the end of the games. ;)

    I am convinced that you like Monstro but by your nature you will never admit it heheh
    But we love you even if you hate RED eheheh, now we know you .;)
    Grading Suite Davinci Resolve, Rental RED Digital camera.
    MONSTRO 8k CF #831 "BLACK PEARL" , EPIC-W GEMINI # "DAFNE".
    ARRI ALEXA EV , ALEXA MINI LF "ROZI"


    SITE
    www.cine5k.ch
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #167  
    Senior Member luigivaltulini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Switzerland- LUGANO
    Posts
    2,493
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Checked.
    No shadow bias in log and with different transformation.
    GRazie MAN ;)

    you are best.
    Grading Suite Davinci Resolve, Rental RED Digital camera.
    MONSTRO 8k CF #831 "BLACK PEARL" , EPIC-W GEMINI # "DAFNE".
    ARRI ALEXA EV , ALEXA MINI LF "ROZI"


    SITE
    www.cine5k.ch
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #168  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Sarajevo
    Posts
    931
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Burkhart View Post
    I would essentially agree with this. RED's strong point has always been the latitude below midpoint. However, I have found that in terms of highlight retention, which for me is often much more difficult to deal with than shadow retention (easier to push up shadows and de-noise than recover what is not there in the highlights), the Alexa still is king. Further, I also often see color and contrast shifts when compensating for exposure issues on other cameras in post and yet the Arri footage still maintains it's neutrality and detail when corrected. I think this test once again underlines this. Extraordinary.
    And midpoint is at half the DR (people always forget to mention that). Which means that if RED's better at underexposure it's also better at overexposure by the same margin.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Šabović Adis View Post
    And midpoint is at half the DR .
    Yes and no.

    If you just take total available camera DR without specific context, yes. Midpoint is in the middle of your parameter extremes. :)

    If you add cinematographic context, defined by density, bit depth & saturation per exposure levels, no. Because parameters for mid point are not the camera's capture extremes.

    Most camera DR misinterpretations and unrealistic expectations come from missing the second perspective.
    Analog > Apollo wooden handgrip http://omeneo.com
    Digital > Primers - professional image transformation tools http://omeneo.com/primers

    imdb


    "Como delfines en el fondo del oceano
    volamos por el universo incentivados por la esperanza"

    "L'esperanza", Sven Väth
    "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"
    Jung/ Carol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #170  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Sarajevo
    Posts
    931
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Simic View Post
    Yes and no.

    If you just take total available camera DR without specific context, yes. Midpoint is in the middle of your parameter extremes. :)

    If you add cinematographic context, defined by density, bit depth & saturation per exposure levels, no. Because parameters for mid point are not the camera's capture extremes.

    Most camera DR misinterpretations and unrealistic expectations come from missing the second perspective.
    That reminds me of:

    - Hey, Japanese made a 25l canister!
    - So? We make'em too.
    - Yeah, but theirs are so tiny.


    But I get your point, Hrvoje. And I agree. :)
    Last edited by Šabović Adis; 02-16-2020 at 09:04 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts