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  1. #6061  
    Digital FX Greg M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalettin Sert View Post
    Why we couldnt buy Komodo ST and apply that $1000 off from the phone purchase?
    because the ST's cost more than $7000 to produce...they are selling them at a loss. Frankly, this has been beat to death...we are getting a $1000 discount for a $1100 purchase, lets not get greedy.
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  2. #6062  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    The Decommissioning | A Red Komodo Test Film



    By Reach Films





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  3. #6063  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalettin Sert View Post
    Why we couldnt buy Komodo ST and apply that $1000 off from the phone purchase?
    Because Red didnít have to give you a discount at all... but they are, so they can also set the terms of the discount.

    Why canít you just be patient and grateful that youíre getting a discount at all?
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  4. #6064  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Powell View Post
    Why canít you just be patient and grateful that youíre getting a discount at all?
    I rather wait for the real production model and get the discount off that. Not only because it's the best deal you can get with Komodo, but also the level of Beta data and fixes to the camera that it's gotten from the ST run. I wonder sometimes why people are so impatient to get this camera now now now? What projects are in dire need of it at this time? Both in regards to the pandemic, but also, what cameras can't be rented for projects that needs to be done now? It feels like the "dogs-wives-charts"-filmmakers really need this camera asap, or they have a project that really needs the Komodo, but in that case, there should be budget enough to cover the additional cost of the ST program.

    Or it's just people who want their new toy, without any intelligent spending of investment into buying equipment. If you needed the camera right now, the ST program was open for you, if you don't need it now, but instead are just impatient to get a new toy, that, in my opinion, is not a very professional attitude towards investing in tech.

    Just wait for the production models. The most important thing is that, as Glen says, we get a discount at all. There was no reason to give us that because Hydrogen had basically nothing to do with the camera side of the business and certainly nothing to do with Komodo. I was pissed about how things went with Hydrogen, as the hype machine marketing was such hyperbole. But getting the discount was such a good apology to all of those who invested in Hydrogen that I cannot grasp how spoiled some people behave around this discount deal. You seriously get a camera with a discount around the cost of the phone. So you have a phone basically for free, which you can use as a monitor for your camera so you don't need to use your iPhone or whatever.

    Red should sell chill pills for all the impatient tech toy junkies, should be a great source of revenue.
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  5. #6065  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    I rather wait for the real production model and get the discount off that. Not only because it's the best deal you can get with Komodo, but also the level of Beta data and fixes to the camera that it's gotten from the ST run. I wonder sometimes why people are so impatient to get this camera now now now? What projects are in dire need of it at this time? Both in regards to the pandemic, but also, what cameras can't be rented for projects that needs to be done now? It feels like the "dogs-wives-charts"-filmmakers really need this camera asap, or they have a project that really needs the Komodo, but in that case, there should be budget enough to cover the additional cost of the ST program.

    Or it's just people who want their new toy, without any intelligent spending of investment into buying equipment. If you needed the camera right now, the ST program was open for you, if you don't need it now, but instead are just impatient to get a new toy, that, in my opinion, is not a very professional attitude towards investing in tech.

    Just wait for the production models. The most important thing is that, as Glen says, we get a discount at all. There was no reason to give us that because Hydrogen had basically nothing to do with the camera side of the business and certainly nothing to do with Komodo. I was pissed about how things went with Hydrogen, as the hype machine marketing was such hyperbole. But getting the discount was such a good apology to all of those who invested in Hydrogen that I cannot grasp how spoiled some people behave around this discount deal. You seriously get a camera with a discount around the cost of the phone. So you have a phone basically for free, which you can use as a monitor for your camera so you don't need to use your iPhone or whatever.

    Red should sell chill pills for all the impatient tech toy junkies, should be a great source of revenue.

    Exactly. It's not as if there aren't very good cameras available at every price point.
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  6. #6066  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    I rather wait for the real production model and get the discount off that. Not only because it's the best deal you can get with Komodo, but also the level of Beta data and fixes to the camera that it's gotten from the ST run. I wonder sometimes why people are so impatient to get this camera now now now? What projects are in dire need of it at this time? Both in regards to the pandemic, but also, what cameras can't be rented for projects that needs to be done now? It feels like the "dogs-wives-charts"-filmmakers really need this camera asap, or they have a project that really needs the Komodo, but in that case, there should be budget enough to cover the additional cost of the ST program.

    Or it's just people who want their new toy, without any intelligent spending of investment into buying equipment. If you needed the camera right now, the ST program was open for you, if you don't need it now, but instead are just impatient to get a new toy, that, in my opinion, is not a very professional attitude towards investing in tech.

    Just wait for the production models. The most important thing is that, as Glen says, we get a discount at all. There was no reason to give us that because Hydrogen had basically nothing to do with the camera side of the business and certainly nothing to do with Komodo. I was pissed about how things went with Hydrogen, as the hype machine marketing was such hyperbole. But getting the discount was such a good apology to all of those who invested in Hydrogen that I cannot grasp how spoiled some people behave around this discount deal. You seriously get a camera with a discount around the cost of the phone. So you have a phone basically for free, which you can use as a monitor for your camera so you don't need to use your iPhone or whatever.

    Red should sell chill pills for all the impatient tech toy junkies, should be a great source of revenue.
    Agreed.
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  7. #6067  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
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    Ha ha... "dogs-wives-charts"-filmmakers !!

    You're on fire Christoffer ! :))
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  8. #6068  
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    I'm a proud (tech toy junkie) ...... Probably also the reason i'm not married lol.
    Love the rant Christoffer, I agree.
    I went for the ST model because that White is what I wanted for a personal camera. Beyond that I totally agree that the smart investment is always to wait for the price to fall in your favor.
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  9. #6069  
    I do completely agree that those who purchased a Hydrogen should be grateful that they are getting a discount on the Komodo. Apart from that, I can see where some eagerness can arise surrounding this camera. For better or for worse, the RED team has been one of the most transparent companies when designing and manufacturing something so ground breaking as this camera. So I get why people are tired of hearing about it and just wanting to get it in their hands. I was in a unique situation in that a lot of cool spec (free) work has popped up recently. In that, renting wasn't really so much an option as there wasn't really a budget either. However, we obviously wanted to produce a high quality image, and we figured that RED would give us what we needed. With all of the uncertainty with covid, there's no guarantee for when the Komodo's would reach their black production status. I knew we were eventually going to buy a Komodo anyway, so we had to jump on the ST program. It's also unique that this will be my first RED purchase, so I am wondering how many people that purchased a Hydrogen also currently have a RED in their arsenal, which should make the waiting a bit more manageable.
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  10. #6070  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Powell View Post
    Because Red didn’t have to give you a discount at all... but they are, so they can also set the terms of the discount.

    Why can’t you just be patient and grateful that you’re getting a discount at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg M View Post
    because the ST's cost more than $7000 to produce...they are selling them at a loss.
    First of all, how do you know that?

    I suspect you don't. There are a lot of accounting ways to assign "cost". Certainly if you assign all of the development costs of sensor, ASICs, etc. and the overhead during a pandemic shutdown to the first few cameras it's easy to make that case - but normally you assign those to the minimum expected sales.

    But since we are both probably throwing out impressions that we can't substantiate, I would suspect that the direct costs (i.e reasonable amortization on developed parts plus other OTS parts, plus direct labor) are no more than $2000. I understand about overhead, but during difficult times (like a pandemic) normal accounting says if you are covering the variable costs (those things I just mentioned) it's worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg M View Post
    Frankly, this has been beat to death...we are getting a $1000 discount for a $1100 purchase, lets not get greedy.
    We are getting a discount to help defray the bad taste we got from the Hydrogen - only if we wait a couple years and buy another product after seemingly 1000+ (someone else's speculation) other people can get one first. And I strongly suspect that B&h and the others selling STs are getting a least a $1000 discount, so why couldn't the Hydrogen people get that instead by selling direct to them?

    I think some of you are a bit too dismissive of the Hydrogen situation. It was promoted by RED and Reduser, then became labeled as the "worst tech product of the year", then we were told cool stuff was coming that would make it all worthwhile, and then was basically abandoned - and we were told it was a different company - even though it says RED all over it - and it seems that RED has done a variety of shuffling of corporate and LLC identities - so it's hard to know what to think.

    I'm a longtime RED owner (R1 SN206, Epic-x, Dragon, scarlet-w, Epic-W, and Hydrogen) and I'm not calling RED out specifically on anything.

    I'm calling out a lot of REDusers that seem to think RED is doing us a huge favor - even though we have to spend another $5000 to get the "discount" - and we should be happy with whatever we get. (Maybe it would be better to give a $1000 store credit toward whatever we want? Typically these types of products have about a 4x markup so it would mean a direct or marginal cost of about $250)

    ------

    FYI IIRC when Sony sold the very high priced F65 and then very quickly superseded it with the much less expensive F55 - they offered the F65 buyers (when some of them got together) a choice of either (I don’t remember the numbers exactly) something like $30,000 refund or Sony would put $50,000 toward a production using the camera. So that sort of thing isn’t unheard of in our industry.

    I've made some mistakes in my 40 year manufacturing history too (thankfully fairly few) that I couldn't necessarily fix the way I would have wanted, but I wasn't selling $100s of millions either (between 1 to 2 million was a pretty good year)

    Ultimately, you try to do the best you can, but it might be worthwhile to rethink the Hydrogen strategy.
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