Thread: Canon EOS R5 with 8K video! No crop!

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  1. #41  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dease View Post
    I “fear” a client not giving a shot about “global shutter” but about footage being either full frame, or more importantly 8K.

    Red couldn’t have made Komodo 8k?

    What else is RED working on?

    At this point I am as I have always been, a fanboy.

    Only now it’s true as as others mention Sony will announce the A7s3.

    Monstro is 80kbase price? This is barely 4 thousand dollars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dease View Post
    Feeling pretty stupid now. How important is global shutter? Gonna pay $6k for 6k while canon users are paying $4k for 8K AND FULL SENSOR SCALING.
    Hi Andrew,

    First some words of concern. A couple months ago you were worried about an 8K Helium camera being replaced by a 6K Komodo camera. That whole conversation that transpired here on REDuser highlighted the fact that you were overlooking all of the specifications of what both systems did.

    Now we're in a place where an 8K camera might be competing with a 6K camera and it also appears you're missing pieces from the whole picture.

    I'll be getting an R5 and I did get to briefly see it a bit ago, but the shear distance between it and Monstro or Helium is pretty wide. And it's not just the gap between 8K 30p versus 60p, nor the differences in DR, and "other things". I don't think I've ever seen a camera launch/announcement where so many of the early testers skirted around the realities of the body overheating within 7-20 minutes of rolling while mentioning it in various first look videos that launched moments after the announcement.

    But now the full info seems to be leaking out that max recording time at about 73 degrees Fahrenheit/23C is 20 minutes. And nobody that I know of these early testers who released videos did stress testing on that, but 2 mention it for sure.

    Here's a graphic from the manual for you:


    Now that embargo is over and I can literally talk about all those who had NDAs and who did not. Yeah, somewhere between 7-20 minutes of rolling at 8K. And that's not a world of roll for 7 minutes, overheat, wait 30 seconds, and start shooting another 7 minutes either btw. That's a you get an error and can't film until the sensor is cool sort of thing.

    Bare in mind on any of the RED camera I filmed long days, long takes, and in rather non-human friendly weather in the realm of too hot and too cold. That stuff right there is going to keep that camera off of professional sets, but will make travel and certain commercial shoots doable. And I'm certain we'll see some sort of camera cooling accessory down the line for the R5. Hell, any proper digital cinema camera for that matter as this isn't even a RED thing to have a camera work all day.

    Even with this overheating, it will be a very useful tool. I commend Canon actually being so honest about it upfront this time around. Ironically I am mainly interested in it for stills and occasionally motion and it appears I'll be holding onto my 5DsRs for a while longer too.

    Tech is moving fast Andrew. But the data sheet mentality that seduces you isn't exactly how any of this is working. And you're overlooking a lot of the datasheet.

    The hottest take is that if you need to deliver 8K, you need a camera that captures 8K or up. If you need to deliver 4K, you need a camera that captures 4K or up. The place we are now is the zone where 8K has been around for 4 years and is still the distant horizon in terms of mass market content delivery and currently the industry as a whole is navigating more and more towards 4K delivery. And this is coming from somebody who primarily works in 8K. And I'm certainly aware so many are still delivering 2K. The whole "game" is extremely dynamic when it comes to cameras now. This is squarely the reason I own various cameras because even though I objectively own the best there currently is on the market with Monstro, there are uses for other cameras when it comes to those who make a living making moving images.

    I own two Monstros, more recently a Komodo and plan on getting another one or two, and I have cameras from Sony, Canon, etc. here. I don't "feel stupid" about any of this. In relationship to Monstro or Helium, you have 8K 60p sensors that can handle rigors of actual production work and can do that all in REDCODE RAW. Some of the beta testers of the R5 hit me up along the way asking about "how to work with the 8K Canon RAW" stuff and that whole concept and the subsequent data rates are very new and chunky for some people.

    I certainly understand how the world looks confusing to potentially one camera body owners perhaps, but I don't know any DSMC2 owners who got shook about today's announcement, similarly for Komodo's launch really. Mainly because the R5 might be useful as a b-cam in comparison to quickly grab a shot or something. Komodo you can roll with all day and does have that global shutter. Your questions about how useful that is overlooks you asking the question "how useful is global shutter to what I shoot".

    In a year, there will be new cameras, in months there will be new cameras. There are always new cameras. Don't freak out. Look closer at what they do and actually are.
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  2. #42  
    Well, the overheating issue is no surprize, IMO. 8k recording to CFexpress in such a small (very compact built) body just generates a lot of heat that can't be dissipated as fast as it is generated. period. If Komodo would have 8k, HFR and maybe dual CFexpress slots in its small form factor, RED would have had the same problems for sure when there's no space for an effective heat dissipating / built in cooling system. You need to be realistic (and a bit sceptic) when new products are being announced. The R5 will never compete with Komodo or any other Digital Cinema Camera, just because it is a mirrorless STILLS camera, and that's what most people will use it for.
    I agree, the improved "intelligent" continuous autofocus and 20fps (electronic shutter) help a lot when doing wildlife / sports photography, I'm looking forward to use it - wondering how it performs with my EF lenses, too. BTW, I was wondering what's going on in one of Canon's "Wildlife" ambassadors when he realized how much easier it is from now on, to get the shot right, due to the mentioned improvements...in terms of: As the competition grows, this might lead to price drops for photographs / jobs, etc...
    I see the R5 as a B or C cam for low budget jobs, for short takes, stabilized, with continuous autofocus.
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  3. #43  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Every 30 years or so, Canon innovates. And they have my respect from a tech POV. It's not going to get me on board, given what I like and what I want to do. But, here is why I'm grateful for this camera, even though I have no interest in any of Canon's systems:

    - People will finally shut up about optical viewfinders. The NPCs now have the permission of the "big two" (now Sony and Canon) to go full digital.

    - People will finally admit that DSLRs are dead, and have been for years, save for a niche application here and there. Once again, the "big two" gave permission for those who need that extra push.

    - Sony will hopefully never rest on its laurels. The A9II should have been noticeably better. Still great, of course, but not as much forward thinking as I hoped for.

    Final note: Canon is lucky that the market didn't kill its DSLR system before they killed it for themselves. I mean, Nikon made better sports cameras even since the D3, and the A9 kicked both their heads in.
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  4. #44  
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    It must get tiring educating people on the reality of spec sheet vs real world, but it must be done. Experience is the only true teacher, but guys like Phil have the patience of a saint and I don't know how people like him do it for so long. The same questions, the same conversations over and over on the battle of the current crop of cameras, it all repeats itself generation after generation in the digital era. Much respect for the drive it takes to be an educator. I'm burnt out just reading. It truly all just repeats.
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  5. #45  
    Senior Member Kemalettin Sert's Avatar
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  6. #46  
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    As someone who invested in a Panasonic S1H a year ago, I was a little nervous I would have some buyers remorse after the Canon announcement today, but I'm still totally happy with where I'm at. Truth is, I have absolutely zero need for 8K. The 8K raw in the R5 will be unworkable for almost everyone who is in that market segment anyway. I'd much rather stick with 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 (if I need better, I'll just shoot with my Arri). And on that level the R5 is a step DOWN compared to the S1H. Less dynamic range (C-log loses against V-log). 30 minute recording limit. And no anamorphic option (though truthfully I don't use mine that much).

    There's always going to be a more sexy camera out there. The question is, does your camera serve your needs? Most of the time unless you're working with a dinosaur or stepping into new kinds of work, the answer will be "yes."
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  7. #47  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    To the criticism of the overheating potential I am equally if not more impressed that Canon is at least informing people now about it. Commendable transparency really.

    Lights, Camera speeds, Roll Sound, Action! *counts in head to 180 seconds* Cut! Alright, check the gate, fan down the cam, Coffee! Where's my coffee! Don't ever film in Arizona, and happy days :)

    I'm not worried about it. If you're showing up to a job and hoping this to be a commercial workhorse and interested in Canon, they have camera options for you with their C300 and C500 series which have cooling systems.

    Somewhere between people bitching about camera boot time and waiting for a camera to physically cool down enough to even roll is people freaking out thinking this does things that far more robust cameras do not.

    Interestingly, if you want the 8K C300 that is used in Canon Japan it's about $92K for a Super 35mm version and that is not in a shooting configuration. They don't even sell that here in the states as far as I know. The other 8K cameras over there are similar except for that one Sony broadcast model, which you can get here. But that's also a six figure commitment.

    Meanwhile we've had cellphones already that shoot 8K and I didn't hear many Helium or Monstro owners freaking out because it's obviously a large smidge off the quality mark for professional work.


    TL;DR: Never panic when there's a new camera announced. There's a reason to test everything and figure out what they can and can't do. Even now with Canon's transparency, people will buy the camera and be pissed off they can't roll for an hour even though they are literally telling you you likely shouldn't be rolling for more than a couple minutes at a time. Similarly in the past in the high end space we had Sony market the F65 as an 8K camera, a camera I actually liked as well, but it was not an 8K camera at all. Shockingly I'm surprised they regained presence in the motion picture industry after that, but it took 3 camera generations to do so.


    On the topic of what really excites me about the R5. When I need to grab a quick shot in 8K likely on a Monstro shoot this year, I can see if I can inter cut the material. The highlight roll-off and dynamic range is of a similar feel to the 1DX MK III, so don't freaking clip whatsoever. Super pumped about the autofocus. It's building on what's good on the 1DX's newest advancements. Their new in camera IBIS with lens stabilization changes the game for low light handheld photography IMO. Likely will help for jittery handheld video peeps to, but with that signature motion that comes with stabilizing close to axis. Actually pairs well resolution-wise with my Monstro, a bit different than my other 8K+ stills cameras here. 20fps stills are cool. I can totally see timelapsers hitting this bad boy up too.

    I'll let you know when i pick one up. Most of the stills you see me post especially of my camera setups are mostly from my 5DsR and that will be my baselines comparison to how the R5 performs on a still image level. Actually hoping for lower noise floor and more dynamic range really.
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  8. #48  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Kenneth, you make some good points there. I, too, was wondering if Panasonic users would feel that way. Both the S1H and the R5 make the same mistake: 30fps limit on the maximum resolution. (Komodo can be forgiven for 'only' 40fps). I'm not a fan of either camera, but that's neither here nor there.

    All of my cameras are superseded models, and the newest camera I own was released in 2015. Some people are still shooting with an M9, which came out in 2009 - you try finding one at a good price today. In fact I can't find a single one on eBay Australia. The M9 is arguably the only digital camera that has this following, but still, it's interesting to see.

    I'm hoping that the initial excitement for these new hybrid cameras will lead some photographers to dump their old gear for cheap. I doubt it, though. But if I see a Leica SL for AU$2,000 I might be tempted to snap it up. Maybe.
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  9. #49  
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    Karim, it's funny you should bring up Leica because I'm hoping the new M announcement next week drops the price on the M10 just a little! haha
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  10. #50  
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    It is good to see R5 is out with specs. Pretty impressive for under $4K. In the old days we used to record 10-20 minutes on film or Beta or DVCPRO 50. Very solid move from Canon, great camera . On my list, for sure.
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