Thread: GOOD BYE REDUSER!

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  1. #11  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewhake View Post
    Bye. Maybe start with stopping asking for completely tone deaf unpaid "spec" work and you will get better feedback? (rolls eyes out of my skull)
    Though you are writing in a fairly harsh way, this is generally good advice.

    Brief story.

    I had coffee with a rather successful and big award winning screenwriter who was ready to make his first film a couple years ago. He was going to direct and it was a good thing he wrote the script because it was destined to get eyes on it, his last 3 scripts were all successful films and a series. He asked to me with me to chat about the schedule and overall plan he had for the shoot. Perhaps also to gauge my interest in filming it, but it wouldn't have worked out schedule-wise.

    After about half a latte and getting a bead on the premise, he told me he wasn't going to pay talent for the week long shoot, which considering what he's done professionally literally shocked me. He had the industry clout for sure to attract people who wanted to work with him for sure, but I did express my concerns.

    I advised him that no matter what, even if you're promising a deferred style payment on potential of sale or other revenue, it's ideal to pay everybody "something" just to get them to show up, be on point, and just generally giving them reason to show up each day. The work for free falls on a stereotype that is the downfall for many filmmakers and very, very, very often leads to issues on the shoot or in post. You need to give cast and crew incentive to show up on time, be prepared, and be professional. A dollar, even a small amount, more or less ensures that.

    I've produced most of the spec shoots I've done for projects I'm pitching when I have that free time. Everybody is paid no matter what. Every test shoot you've seen from me too for that matter. I really hate producing btw. Hate wearing that extra hat. But for spec and some of my smaller shoots, it's just a thing you gotta do to make it work.

    General filmmaking thought here. I do think it's moderately a right of passage for a filmmaker to experience in some way every role on set if you can. Gives you a really well rounded perspective on what's expected to pull off a shoot. It also helps instill the sense of value and importance held within each role on a production. The people who do those jobs, who work for 8-12 hours or more in a day, and take their time to contribute their talents and efforts deserve a bit more than hope.

    There's certainly some room for wiggle in that mindset. If it's you and your buddies making an interior apartment confined comedy or perhaps even for some film students, but it's hard to expect quality for free.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  2. #12  
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    Ketch, it's probably not the best time for you to do this. In the coming weeks or months it will be important to be involved in online communities to feel connected to people. There are many people here who support you for the knowledge you have given and have genuine affection for you. It would be real easy to take a break and return in a short time, there's no reason for black and white decisions.
     

  3. #13  
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    Ketch,

    I think I have teased you myself over the years, nothing like bullying, but I must say I always enjoy seeing your posts and I love hearing what your latest project involves. You seem to have a very exotic existence and you are not afraid to share your plans well in advance of realizing them -- not many will dare to do that. I would hate to see you leave.
     

  4. #14  
    Senior Member constantine Tirintzis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Though you are writing in a fairly harsh way, this is generally good advice.

    Brief story.

    I had coffee with a rather successful and big award winning screenwriter who was ready to make his first film a couple years ago. He was going to direct and it was a good thing he wrote the script because it was destined to get eyes on it, his last 3 scripts were all successful films and a series. He asked to me with me to chat about the schedule and overall plan he had for the shoot. Perhaps also to gauge my interest in filming it, but it wouldn't have worked out schedule-wise.

    After about half a latte and getting a bead on the premise, he told me he wasn't going to pay talent for the week long shoot, which considering what he's done professionally literally shocked me. He had the industry clout for sure to attract people who wanted to work with him for sure, but I did express my concerns.

    I advised him that no matter what, even if you're promising a deferred style payment on potential of sale or other revenue, it's ideal to pay everybody "something" just to get them to show up, be on point, and just generally giving them reason to show up each day. The work for free falls on a stereotype that is the downfall for many filmmakers and very, very, very often leads to issues on the shoot or in post. You need to give cast and crew incentive to show up on time, be prepared, and be professional. A dollar, even a small amount, more or less ensures that.

    I've produced most of the spec shoots I've done for projects I'm pitching when I have that free time. Everybody is paid no matter what. Every test shoot you've seen from me too for that matter. I really hate producing btw. Hate wearing that extra hat. But for spec and some of my smaller shoots, it's just a thing you gotta do to make it work.

    General filmmaking thought here. I do think it's moderately a right of passage for a filmmaker to experience in some way every role on set if you can. Gives you a really well rounded perspective on what's expected to pull off a shoot. It also helps instill the sense of value and importance held within each role on a production. The people who do those jobs, who work for 8-12 hours or more in a day, and take their time to contribute their talents and efforts deserve a bit more than hope.

    There's certainly some room for wiggle in that mindset. If it's you and your buddies making an interior apartment confined comedy or perhaps even for some film students, but it's hard to expect quality for free.
    Hello Phil. I m not here very often the last couple of years, so I haven't been following what exactly happened with Ketch who said what , bullying or whatever else is mentioned here, but I d like to hear what is the reason you wrote the above story, though I fully agree with your comments. Also from my poor knowledge in this forum, I would also like to know if disagreeing with someones methods, or broken promises, or practices , and you let him know directly in a hush way or not, publicly is considered to be bushing or bullying. Cheers,

    EDIT. After reading all 4 pages what I saw is a few people like Nick not agreeing with Ketch opinion and just use the word (for fuck shake ) Is that bullying really? adult to adult ? I would call it a strong comment , and to be frank , its adult to adult just saying for fuck shake. I also see other people giving the pro advice , and unless they didn't congratulate Ketch, he is back calling them bullies and that he has enough. At one point he even says to one that suggested to watch red dress , to piss off Dermot Shane. So in that sense that's bullying to right? Of course its not , you lay down your idea post and then what do you expect? people to all say WOW fantastic? Seriously? if you aren't prepare to listen to others and their criticism, that BTW you ask for, DON'T WRITE. JUST DO IT.

    Enough said. Bye bye Ketch.
    Constantine Tirintzis
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  5. #15  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by constantine Tirintzis View Post
    I would also like to know if disagreeing with someones methods, or broken promises, or practices , and you let him know directly in a hush way or not, publicly is considered to be bushing or bullying. Cheers,
    It's certainly okay to disagree with somebody if you have a differing opinion. And particularly when a topic is opened seeking advice we'll likely see lots of differing opinions.

    But generally it's how people disagree.

    Example: We don't want stuff like "you idiot, do it this way". Calling somebody an idiot is not the worse personal attack.

    But a better way: "I think it would be better to approach it like this". Or whatever.

    Ideally we are polite even in heated discussion. We do have some cultural divides here as it is an international forum, but usually we're dealing with intelligent professionals and most professionals understand especially in a public forum how best to conduct themselves.

    In the case of Ketch's most recent thread, he was putting a call out there to make a spec piece on a forum filled with filmmakers who have done work like that. How you present such things matters and the gates were opened for some pretty differing opinions. Most coarse words were mainly surrounding "what it sounded like", but nobody seemed to cross a harder line.

    As a mod it's a balancing act honestly. Sometimes a little poke and jab seems to be well received. I remember after have a heated debate about something with Jake and running into him at a holiday party in LA it was all smiles. Similarly though there's been some heated discourse that resulted in bans due to people getting lured into something they really shouldn't have been and that created a really toxic atmosphere for about a month. That's all been sorted and things are generally back to normal.

    Basically, the simple recommendation if you agree or have a different opinion about something; be polite.

    Fairly easy. I'm not always perfect myself either, but I do my best to tackle "moments" when they pop up from time to time.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
     

  6. #16  
    Senior Member constantine Tirintzis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    It's certainly okay to disagree with somebody if you have a differing opinion. And particularly when a topic is opened seeking advice we'll likely see lots of differing opinions.

    But generally it's how people disagree.

    Example: We don't want stuff like "you idiot, do it this way". Calling somebody an idiot is not the worse personal attack.

    But a better way: "I think it would be better to approach it like this". Or whatever.

    Ideally we are polite even in heated discussion. We do have some cultural divides here as it is an international forum, but usually we're dealing with intelligent professionals and most professionals understand especially in a public forum how best to conduct themselves.

    In the case of Ketch's most recent thread, he was putting a call out there to make a spec piece on a forum filled with filmmakers who have done work like that. How you present such things matters and the gates were opened for some pretty differing opinions. Most coarse words were mainly surrounding "what it sounded like", but nobody seemed to cross a harder line.

    As a mod it's a balancing act honestly. Sometimes a little poke and jab seems to be well received. I remember after have a heated debate about something with Jake and running into him at a holiday party in LA it was all smiles. Similarly though there's been some heated discourse that resulted in bans due to people getting lured into something they really shouldn't have been and that created a really toxic atmosphere for about a month. That's all been sorted and things are generally back to normal.

    Basically, the simple recommendation if you agree or have a different opinion about something; be polite.

    Fairly easy. I'm not always perfect myself either, but I do my best to tackle "moments" when they pop up from time to time.
    I read all 4 pages and apart from one strong comment from Nick , that didn't actually swear directly to Ketch but rather expressed his frustration by saying ,for fuck shake, all the rest pretty much expressed their opinion and gave advice on what they think was right, YET they all have been called Bullies because they didn't agree. Am I wrong? One even being told to Piss Off from Ketch because he dared to say 2 words. Red dress. Seriously?

    cheers for the answer. i didn't read his post BTW, I just read all the rest. And I found everything very over dramatic .
    Constantine Tirintzis
    Steadicam,Robotics,design & engineering
    constantine@flowcine.com
     

  7. #17  
    Senior Member Steve Sherrick's Avatar
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    As one of the people that offered advice, I think Ketch knows that the advice is coming from a good place. I wasn't looking to tear him down, but rather offer some tips that maybe help him have some success. I can't speak for everyone when it comes to feelings about Ketch and his posts here on Reduser, but for me I see someone who like many of us is just trying to find his way in this unique career we have all chosen. He just happens to vocalize his dreams, thoughts in ways that some of us perhaps keep to ourselves. It opens him up for criticism, but it also opens him up to people who are generous with advice and guidance and I think when it is presented in a healthy way, he probably appreciates it.

    I don't pretend to know Ketch. We had dinner many years ago in Vegas and of course many interactions here on Reduser. So, it would be unfair for me to judge him without getting to know him in person a little more. I think in this particular case, where he is looking to do a movie with a tagline that is perhaps not everyone's taste, would be to reserve judgement until either he presents a script (which he may not if NDA involved), presents a more descriptive overview of the film, etc. There are many taglines for movies that on the surface seem "creepy", "controversial", etc and some of them turn out to be and some don't. I'll admit that I was a bit unnerved when I first read it, but to be honest there's not a whole lot to go on with what has been presented so far, so again, I just think it's wise to let it play out, let him work through his ideas, offer constructive help, and if his posts are not your cup of tea, ignore anything he posts. That's fair for both parties.

    Right now, we really do need to embrace each other. We're in for a tough ride here over the next year. We have probably not seen the worst yet, so it will take communities like this to get through this crisis.

    Everyone stay safe and healthy!
    Steve Sherrick
     

  8. #18  
    Senior Member scott pommier's Avatar
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    My support for my fellow writers and directors ends where my concern for the safety of cast and crew begins.
     

  9. #19  
    Senior Member Samir Patel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott pommier View Post
    My support for my fellow writers and directors ends where my concern for the safety of cast and crew begins.
    100%
     

  10. #20  
    Senior Member Tom Dowler's Avatar
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    Haven’t followed this at all but now I really want to see The Red Dress. Anyone got a link?
    Anglo-American DP, shooting docs and branded content in LA.

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