Thread: The First Komodo Out in the Wild

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  1. #281  
    Question for anyone who has a Komodo currently. Does the 12G SDI output (or 4K ProRes recording) support 60p downscaled or only 60p in sensor crop mode?
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  2. #282  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Yes, I've been giddy over that since they announced the sensor size of Komodo. My brain immediately went to DSMC3 and what's theoretically possible. An 8K full frame global shutter with no cmos smear would be the perfect step up from Helium for me. I'd also love if they decided to do a "gemini" treatment on it and go for taller than 1.9:1 since several companies are now doing anamorphic for larger formats. Thinking even further into the future I would love if they just did a 10K by 10K wider-than-full-frame square canvas where you simply extract what you need from it -- essentially a multi-aspect ratio sensor with surface area to spare. But that's all a discussion for another time. :)
    Aaron, I've been thinking EXACTLY the same thing.

    An 8K Komodo "Vista Vision" sensor that's 4:3 (for anamorphic).

    And then a 10K Komodo, that's 4:3 and 45mm wide.

    The extra DR from additional K's is also exciting...
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  3. #283  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Aaron love these calculations.
    Here's a quick preview of an 8K Komodo Sensor:
    8192 * (27.03/6144) = 36.04
    Notice it's EXACTLY Vista Vision. Not sure if that's a coincidence or not, but worth noting.
    Actually, 36mm in width is 35FF - not VV. Old school VistaVision is 37.72 in width and RED's version of VV is just shy of 41mm wide.

    IAC, if the 4.4 micron pixel pitch of Komodo is part of a sensor design rubric for DSMC3, I'd expect closer to 10K (44mm) in width. There have been a number of lenses come to market in the last couple of years that can handle more than 35FF 24x36mm coverage, including RED VV. That said, I do think there is a sweet spot beyond which you're essentially going medium format. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but for most narrative production scenarios having a MF target with it's reduced DoF might not be welcome.

    FWIW, assuming Bayer CFA on CMOS, 10-12K to oversample for 8K seems like the obvious next step. Helium sensor tech is just over 3.6 microns, so it would be about 44.85mm wide at 12K and just over 36mm at 10K. RED could easily have sensor tech in the pipeline for DSMC3 at a completely different pixel pitch, only time will reveal that.

    What is the "ideal" pixel pitch? Gemini is 6 microns which is part of its superior sensitivity equation, but certainly not the whole story. A 12K chip at 6 microns would be 72mm wide, which would be fun for certain use cases, but unwieldy for most production scenarios. 12K at 3 microns would be 36mm wide - to match 35FF it would need to be 8K tall - 96 megapixels anyone? How about an optical path capable of 165 lp/mm (line pairs per millimeter) across 90% of the frame? Dragon and Monstro are 5 microns which works well with most of the cinema optics available - but 12K would be 60mm wide!

    It would seem like the sweet spot is 4 microns or so. 10K would be 40mm wide, which is too much for most S35 lenses but many 35FF optics would cover. 12K would be 48mm wide, which would limit lens options - but still have enough DoF for narrative. Getting wafers that big without dead pixels is a whole other discussion. IMO, a 12K wide sensor should be 6K tall (24mm at 4 microns) for a potential 72 megapixel raster. I know the anamorph peeps would want even more, but 24mm should get them there.

    With a sensor that large - 24x48mm - you really open the window, for windowing. How about 8K 16:9 at 32mm wide for sports/docco/verité? Should work with almost all S35 glass and have decent DoF - and, perhaps - decent HFR. That would suit a lot of production scenarios, including 8K shows - yes, actual resolution after demosaicing would be likely be closer to 6.5K, but I'd guess we are more than a decade away from anyone worrying about that. The full chip would be spectacular for some projects and 125 lp/mm is a good match to premium optics.

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  4. #284  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    I'll make a tidy graphic, but I'm holding off due to to a couple of things that remain to be seen.

    Until them format purists, VFX artists, and true believers enjoy some format witchery!

    Film Format Relevance to the Komodo 6K sensor:

    5.5K 17:9 = Super 35mm 3-perf
    3K 16x9 = Super 16mm

    About 5K is the with of Academy 35mm format for the 3 of you who still use zooms like that, but the image circle will cover larger than that for sure.

    There's more to dive into there, but those are the most notable and of importance in my mind.

    Digital, well Komodo is around APS-C, so all that glass.

    For those who might go rogue and might adapt Micro Four Thirds lenses to Komodo's RF Mount, likely very safe at 4.5K 16x9. Will depend on the lenses if it covers beyond that.


    And highly relevant to those of us working with other RED cameras and using Komodo!

    Relevant to RED if matching formats:
    RED Monstro and Dragon 5.5K FF w/ a 4% extraction = Komodo 6K 17:9
    RED Helium 7.5K FF w/ a 4% extraction = Komodo 6K 17:9
    RED Gemini 4.5K w/ a 2% extraction = Komodo 6K 17:9

    Obvious resolution disparity and certainly frame rate differences, but this a pure format basis thing.
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  5. #285  
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    Any word yet about the final choices of resolutions and formats that Komodo will include Phil?
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  6. #286  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rasberry View Post
    Any word yet about the final choices of resolutions and formats that Komodo will include Phil?
    I sort of know, but we'll see what really happens.

    Main thing I can say is I don't view the "loss" currently of 2:1 as a big deal, despite me loving that format. It is a very minor resolution extraction from the full 17:9 frame IMO. Might net you a 1fps or whtever, but probably not.

    Interestingly RED has strayed from the normal FF, WS, and HD nomenclature to a more numerical 17:9, 2.40, and 16:9. I don't hate that. Though 17:9 makes me feel tingly sometimes as I've been a DCI, UHD, and Scope sort of dude.

    I'll cry later on that I guess.

    Anamorphic is the big question and we know support is coming which is nice. As to how much, how, and which anamorphic support we get; who knows. I think it's safe to say 2X is coming though.

    This is all good in Komodo's specific case as it's an exercise simplification and reduction in mind.

    Currently having a Komodo these spherical formats:
    - 17:9
    - 16:9
    - 2.4:1

    Makes sense to me. We'll know soon on anamorphic.

    As for resolutions, well yeah, I want every K and .5K variant in there of those things. Mostly as I mentioned it opens up not only a world of glass possibilities and formats, but also additional frame rates.

    Truthfully, it will be a rare day for me to film under 5K resolution on Komodo as I mainly deliver 4K and 8K content professionally. Maybe down to 4K I guess. And I do have the itch to do some 3K Super 16 work. That's a weird itch though.
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  7. #287  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I sort of know, but we'll see what really happens.

    Main thing I can say is I don't view the "loss" currently of 2:1 as a big deal, despite me loving that format. It is a very minor resolution extraction from the full 17:9 frame IMO. Might net you a 1fps or whtever, but probably not.

    Interestingly RED has strayed from the normal FF, WS, and HD nomenclature to a more numerical 17:9, 2.40, and 16:9. I don't hate that. Though 17:9 makes me feel tingly sometimes as I've been a DCI, UHD, and Scope sort of dude.

    I'll cry later on that I guess.

    Anamorphic is the big question and we know support is coming which is nice. As to how much, how, and which anamorphic support we get; who knows. I think it's safe to say 2X is coming though.

    This is all good in Komodo's specific case as it's an exercise simplification and reduction in mind.

    Currently having a Komodo these spherical formats:
    - 17:9
    - 16:9
    - 2.4:1

    Makes sense to me. We'll know soon on anamorphic.

    As for resolutions, well yeah, I want every K and .5K variant in there of those things. Mostly as I mentioned it opens up not only a world of glass possibilities and formats, but also additional frame rates.

    Truthfully, it will be a rare day for me to film under 5K resolution on Komodo as I mainly deliver 4K and 8K content professionally. Maybe down to 4K I guess. And I do have the itch to do some 3K Super 16 work. That's a weird itch though.
    Is this sensor better suited to 2x anamorphic? I know past reds cut off quite a bit on to and bottom
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  8. #288  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    Actually, 36mm in width is 35FF - not VV. Old school VistaVision is 37.72 in width and RED's version of VV is just shy of 41mm wide.
    Frame edge to frame edge is 37.72mm, but wasn't the actual extraction area of VistaVison 36mm?
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  9. #289  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Frame edge to frame edge is 37.72mm, but wasn't the actual extraction area of VistaVison 36mm?
    Extraction was variable back in the day all the way to modern VV use.

    Even more interesting is we never talk of Arnoldscope, which was 10-perf VV, just a smidge wider.

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  10. #290  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Even more interesting is we never talk of Arnoldscope, which was 10-perf VV, just a smidge wider.
    Why am I not surprised that such a format existed? Mind you, that's a long length of film. I'm certainly not surprised that nobody uses it!

    BTW do the anamorphic modes on Red sensors allow for a higher frame rate?
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