Thread: A controversial Komodo topic - Footage and DP's

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 62
  1. #1 A controversial Komodo topic - Footage and DP's 
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    246
    So here's a controversial topic I will bring up...

    My belief is, we are not going to see many clips of proper cinematography footage for a while from this camera. In the sense of full scenes, expertly lit with actors, sets, and quality control, I feel we will not get this anytime soon. My reasons are as follows:

    1) I believe the shear price point of the komodo lends itself to being purchased by less than experienced and less quality level "DPs" than with other camera systems. This is an easy buy in to the RED name on the cheap, and it's become quite popular of a buz with younger filmmakers. Younger filmmakers and amateur filmmakers don't really shoot the best footage....

    2) Lot's of productions are just shut down or scaled to limited options, so having a normal set with proper gaffer, lighting, set design, and actors is going to be hard to come by for months...

    3) A rush to get footage "out" has put pressure to just show footage from the komodo, but unfortunately just turning on a camera and shooting really doesn't show off its quality. The few guys that have the komodo in there hands have put out some lack luster images so far, and I feel its just from pressure of the community wanting to see something. In that rush, they get cat videos, random shots of airplanes, overly crushed post images, ect...

    4) Because of price point some buyers of this camera might not really be into traditional cinematography. They might be more ENG, Corporate, Documentary, Live show, or fly on the wall people who are tempted. This means that their idea of a good cinematic image will differ greatly than that of say someone who loves traditional quality scripted fictional movie making. A difference in opinion with these people are always a battle online. Between the people who shoot a sit-down interview in a semi-uncontrolled environment with maybe 1 or 2 lights and think the shots look "amazing", and then those who go the extra mile to control every aspect, get everything perfect, have higher understanding of quality light, better tools, better skills...


    I feel like this is going to hurt the komodo's name for the first half of the year its out. Which worries me, I've seen this happen many times before with other camera systems, it's a phenomenon thats unforutnate but true for many GOOD quality cameras that are priced in the prosumer level.

    This sucks because I don't want it to tarnish the name of the camera or its actual capabilities. I do believe this camera is A-Camera level quality, and can fully support a feature film production rigged out. I would love to see it fully adopted as an A camera, instead of thinking it's not possible. I used to be a RED owner for many years with a few systems, I left camera owning all together for a while, then I eventually bought an Arri system. Everyone in the cinematography community on larger sets seems to love shitting on RED. Arri has a reputation that is second to none, so to battle side by side with a relatively new company that pushes tech like RED... and well you get this snobbery. I do love my Arri color science and quality of image, however I have shot and seen AMAZING footage from RED systems just the same.

    I write this in hopes that any of you that do get this camera, step up your game a bit and post some better than average footage. There's nothing wrong with pushing your abilities harder and take more care of your image quality. To the students and younger or less experienced that will buy it, please take your time and learn your craft and study what makes an image a good one. I also feel like people will argue about this camera a lot in where it "belongs".

    I personally see this as a stripped down A-camera. Not a "B or crash cam". Time will tell how others handle their workflows. Once I get my hands on mine, I will not post cat videos or random shots of things, I'll keep those to myself, when I do post it will be from controlled situations or properly colored and managed footage to SHOW OFF the cameras abilities and let it stand out as a good system.


    Now go ahead and chew me out, but I've been doing this my whole life and see this time and time again when new digital systems comes out.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Mark Phelan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,661
    I understand what you're getting at, but consider how things have changed so rapidly in the past ten years. I don't think we've seen such a sea-change in all of the industry. The "traditional" cinematography is a very small part of the pie now. Last week I shot an episode of Building Off The Grid using an iPhone and a GoPro. So "proper" cinematography might have to start rethinking itself or it could become a buggy whip. It's all in the mix. Horses for courses.

    The world has changed. And therein is the point. This is a moving target. I was discussing not long ago how wonderful it is to have so many lighting options and how much better lighting has become since the '80s. The little Apurture light is a great example.

    And pandemics have forever changed the movie theater. When was the last time you even went to a movie?

    I mentioned to Michael Cioni a couple months ago about how wonderful his Workflow From Home series is for Frame.io and how it was pure genius to create a global pandemic for their marketing. ;-)

    Not chewing you out at all, just making a few observations. We are living the changes and it's a wonderful time for us to use any and all tools at our disposal. Komodo could slay Dragons. And it might. Makes me wonder what DSMC3 and future versions will look like.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Posts
    10,150
    Shooting a camera in a controlled environment will always look fantastic. But thatís the problem, any camera can look amazing, even mobile phones. The camera will speak for itself when itís out. It wonít be long. Plus the camera has already been used on big productions. Those projects will be out soon enough.
    ___________________________

    VFX, Cinematographer, Photographer
    10 frame handles
    Vimeo
    Instagram
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    I say let the camera stand on its own merits. As cameras evolve the expectations evolve. The more forgiving a camera the smaller the crew needed to run it. This cuts cost. I envision this camera as a run n gun capable setup. I might be proven wrong. No one ever complains when filming with a Canon in less than perfect lighting. The less work needed to get the shot the better. Thatís why features such as AF are being added to Komodo. And honestly, that AF is going to need to be good... Dam good, or else whatís the point?
    Komodo is not some fragile child that needs your protection. Itís a tool... and it has to perform. And perform well under less than ideal conditions. Everything extra that is required to get a good image is an additional cost that needs to be factored in.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by Han Vogen View Post
    I say let the camera stand on its own merits. As cameras evolve the expectations evolve. The more forgiving a camera the smaller the crew needed to run it. This cuts cost. I envision this camera as a run n gun capable setup. I might be proven wrong. No one ever complains when filming with a Canon in less than perfect lighting. The less work needed to get the shot the better. That’s why features such as AF are being added to Komodo. And honestly, that AF is going to need to be good... Dam good, or else what’s the point?
    Komodo is not some fragile child that needs your protection. It’s a tool... and it has to perform. And perform well under less than ideal conditions. Everything extra that is required to get a good image is an additional cost that needs to be factored in.
    And thats where I COMPLETELY disagree. I own 2 Alexa XR/XT systems, these cameras are not more forgiving at all. Neither is a RED Gemini which I use a lot too because the company I work with a lot owns one... I do NOT believe in the less work needed to get the shot the better. This is my point I made. This is 2 completely different mindsets talking about the same camera.

    Me as a cinematographer who ONLY shoots scripted fiction work which goes on TV or major streaming services (some traditional theatrical releases too) I don't agree at all. Auto Focus is a joke for any real traditional tv or film shoots, first there's no point in our line of work , second our lenses don't support that anyway. We all use real cinema PL lenses which have no auto focus features, we have artistic control over the focus, including how smooth it focuses how and when to transition from subject to subject, how to feather and track when subjects move... It's an art from and a serious job, one of the most important on set.

    So yeah, you've made my point clearly. You are the kind of guy that see is from the prosumor standpoint, which totally doesn't align at all with someone who comes from my background.

    So in the end all that it will lead to is arguing and backand forth. Seen it a thousand times.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    11,752
    I won't chew you out, but I'm happy to respond perhaps mostly pertaining to myself or my own pov.

    1.



    Also, I'm 40 and don't classify as a young filmmaker sadly anymore. Dammit. Miss my 13 year old self suddenly.

    2. This is actually rather true. What led to me posting an R3D of myself, well lit, properly exposed, and all that was primarily due to two cancellations of Hair/MUA, Talent, and our location physically being closed the week of me receiving the camera. Production is barely burping right now and the pandemic is still here. But fear not, I'm working on that.

    3. Ouch. *tears* Keep in mind all the peeps are of a variety of skill sets and shooting styles. Commercial, Doc, Lifestyle, etc. You're going to get an even larger variety of footage as more cameras get out there. There's been good and bad, but I think it's more revealing when you see the good in this case. It's also the simple reason I didn't start shooting squirrels in my back yard a couple weeks ago. That first sample R3D I provided was shot at 3am in my home, 5 light setup. 2X1 Gemini through a 4x4 Matthews silk was key. Exposed accurately to 18% Gray.

    4. I'm certainly experimenting with a variety of rigs for a variety of shooting styles, but I am mainly in the cinema and weirder worlds game and that's my primary focus with this tool.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joesef o. View Post
    Auto Focus is a joke for any real traditional tv or film shoots, first there's no point in our line of work , second our lenses don't support that anyway. We all use real cinema PL lenses which have no auto focus features, we have artistic control over the focus, including how smooth it focuses how and when to transition from subject to subject, how to feather and track when subjects move... It's an art from and a serious job, one of the most important on set.
    Generally I am more of tactile focus pulling sort of fellow, in fact I prefer that over electronic focus systems even for the reasons you mention. But auto focus is just another tool. A tool that slowly but surely is making it's way onto higher end sets:
    https://prestoncinema.com/
    https://www.fdtimes.com/2018/01/29/g...-focus-speak2/


    I'll be posting more shortly. The biggest hurdles for me are mainly due to the pandemic here in LA and a smidgen of time related issues as I am actually doing things.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    I think the major issue is that a lot of people, like the OP, want this camera to be able to produce an image on par with a 20k red, and Jarred is doing his best to temper expectations without hurting sales. You can use any camera as an A cam if you like and to the OP's point an iPhone in the hands of a skilled DP with proper lighting is going to look better than an Arri Mini LF in un-skilled hands. That being said, these people who received these cameras are not average joes who shouldn't be considered un-skilled, I think they all would consider themselves cinematographers who want to produce high quality images. Which leads us to this point in the camera's life where we've had about 20 clips from various sources, and none of them have really been impressive, or at least on-par with expectations, which I believe is the motivation for the OPs post. He;s saying do not judge the camera until it can have the benefit of full lighting and crew. BUT unfortunately I believe that's not how most will end up using this camera. This camera is coming at a time when the lines of PRO-sumer and pro-fessional are being blurred. Kinefinity, Z-cam, Sigma, and the name that probably gets looked down on the most here, BLACKMAGIC, is leading that change. John Brawley has been shooting the HULU show, The Great, with a combination of URSA mini g2s and Arri cameras and nobody has said anything about it taking away from the cinematography. Oddly enough, that Blackmagic Ursa g2, is right at that $6000 price point, just like the Komodo and when I asked on the group livestream if any of the current komodo holders would be willing to compare the image created by the KOMODO to the BLACKMAGIC POCKET 6K I was met with a chuckle and a WHY?, which surprised me a little. So... I don't think it's an argument but a real discussion that people don't want to have about the image short-comings of the Komodo based on what we've seen so far and that's difficult to do when people want something to live up to the expectations or brand loyalty that they've built up, similar to trying to have a real conversation with someone who is steadfast in their religious faith.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    I will add two Komodos to my three DSMC2 cameras (Monstro and 2x Helium) the minute the Hydrogen discount window opens up. Why? I have all the slo-mo I need. What I really need are cameras that are quieter that I can move closer to talent during recording sessions without compromising audio due to fan noise. Komodo solves that problem, and it solves it for the lenses that I already have (especially Tokina 11-20). What's not to like?
    Michael Tiemann, Chapel Hill NC

    "Dream so big you can share!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member Spencer Weaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    491
    I love the komdo as a baby RED. I love it as a novelty. I love is as a RED "GoPro". I love it as a small little box of magic. I love it as an affordable RED entry point. I love it as a RED .R3D machine!....R3D is what makes it so appealing to me over something like a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera. And I love the global shutter!!!

    But I don't for a second have lofty expectations that this is or somehow needs to be DSMC3. And I'm not asking it to be the silver bullet for everything.

    I imagine Komodo, in many ways, will help usher in the newer tech coming in DSMC3. Indeed, sometimes I wonder if this komdo is somehow related to a terrible lizard we have not yet met...
    Your friendly Neighborhood REDuser
    Scarlet-W# 77
    http://spencerweaver.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    I won't chew you out, but I'm happy to respond perhaps mostly pertaining to myself or my own pov.

    1.


    Also, I'm 40 and don't classify as a young filmmaker sadly anymore. Dammit. Miss my 13 year old self suddenly.

    2. This is actually rather true. What led to me posting an R3D of myself, well lit, properly exposed, and all that was primarily due to two cancellations of Hair/MUA, Talent, and our location physically being closed the week of me receiving the camera. Production is barely burping right now and the pandemic is still here. But fear not, I'm working on that.

    3. Ouch. *tears* Keep in mind all the peeps are of a variety of skill sets and shooting styles. Commercial, Doc, Lifestyle, etc. You're going to get an even larger variety of footage as more cameras get out there. There's been good and bad, but I think it's more revealing when you see the good in this case. It's also the simple reason I didn't start shooting squirrels in my back yard a couple weeks ago. That first sample R3D I provided was shot at 3am in my home, 5 light setup. 2X1 Gemini through a 4x4 Matthews silk was key. Exposed accurately to 18% Gray.

    4. I'm certainly experimenting with a variety of rigs for a variety of shooting styles, but I am mainly in the cinema and weirder worlds game and that's my primary focus with this tool.




    Generally I am more of tactile focus pulling sort of fellow, in fact I prefer that over electronic focus systems even for the reasons you mention. But auto focus is just another tool. A tool that slowly but surely is making it's way onto higher end sets:
    https://prestoncinema.com/
    https://www.fdtimes.com/2018/01/29/g...-focus-speak2/


    I'll be posting more shortly. The biggest hurdles for me are mainly due to the pandemic here in LA and a smidgen of time related issues as I am actually doing things.
    So as we speak Phil, you're footage is the only footage I've been able to check out properly, downloaded the R3D's and quickly did my own investigation into the footage. In my opinion, yours is the only test shot that's actually given me any kind of look into and under the hood of the komodo. Which I thank you for...

    With that said, I think people might be taking my "young" comment a little more on the nose, I just mean less experienced with traditional cinematography and cinematography tests.

    Also as someone else mentioned my point of this topic is to warn the people who are eyeing this camera as a serious cinematography camera, NOT to judge based on the first footage coming out of it right now. I see a LOT of negative comments about the Komodo on youtube clips of random shots that were posted. I see the camera in the hands up some that just did a horrible first impression of the camera and I'm trying to give reasoning for it.

    I am on the list, hopefully I've made it to the ByeBye Blue model, I AM buying one, and I AM going to put it through some real cinematography tests, so I hope people dont jump to conclusions about Komodo before actual cinema shots are made, and not just cat videos lol.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts