Thread: Blackmagic Camera Update July 2020

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  1. #231  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    Full sensor raw that's resolution independent is definitely a huge step in the right direction. None of that footage looked worse (after being compressed to 4k web delivery), which is awesome.

    John, did you use diffusion filtration on the lower res capture (I recall you mentioning that you took it with you because you were worried 12k would be too aggressive on faces, but didn't end up using it because of the smoothness/glass factor)?

    No diffusion used at all.

    I did shoot some diffusion tests, and I’ll post those later.

    But it didn’t “need” it I thought...

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  2. #232  
    This (as well as the other new releases) is great news in terms of competition. Competition directly benefits the consumers. Whether you decide to purchase this camera or not, you'll eventually benefit from the boundaries they're trying to push.

    I'm sure this news will fire up some internal discussion at Red about whether this changes some of their goals for DSMC3. Who knows, maybe they've already been working on something bigger. Totally possible if BMD has been able to keep this secret for three years of dev.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike S. M. View Post
    LOL. It's a digital camera. No moving parts. Hours don't matter.
    Besides the fans, buttons, switches, and card slots that indeed contain moving parts, electrons move through most of the parts of a digital camera. Most of the surface mounted devices have a manufacturer rated mean time between failure- usually represented in hours (although sometimes so high you won't realistically ever hit that level of usage). ASIC degredation and electron migration can occur as well as aging of the materials used to fabricate each part. Even age without hours of use matters.

    That being said, hours matter less than care and maintenance. I'd rather buy a 10,000 hour camera that's been meticulously cared for than one that's been abused for 24 hours, but how can I tell unless I was there for all of it? Other than battle wounds, hours are one of the easiest to discover tell-tales.
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  3. #233  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hopper View Post
    This (as well as the other new releases) is great news in terms of competition. Competition directly benefits the consumers. Whether you decide to purchase this camera or not, you'll eventually benefit from the boundaries they're trying to push.

    I'm sure this news will fire up some internal discussion at Red about whether this changes some of their goals for DSMC3. Who knows, maybe they've already been working on something bigger. Totally possible if BMD has been able to keep this secret for three years of dev.




    Besides the fans, buttons, switches, and card slots that indeed contain moving parts, electrons move through most of the parts of a digital camera. Most of the surface mounted devices have a manufacturer rated mean time between failure- usually represented in hours (although sometimes so high you won't realistically ever hit that level of usage). ASIC degredation and electron migration can occur as well as aging of the materials used to fabricate each part. Even age without hours of use matters.

    That being said, hours matter less than care and maintenance. I'd rather buy a 10,000 hour camera that's been meticulously cared for than one that's been abused for 24 hours, but how can I tell unless I was there for all of it? Other than battle wounds, hours are one of the easiest to discover tell-tales.
    I have asked numerous times in here if they working on something else (DSMC3) or if Komodo really is taking all this energy. Of course they are, I hope? But I’d also wish they mention it.
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  4. #234  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hopper View Post

    That being said, hours matter less than care and maintenance. I'd rather buy a 10,000 hour camera that's been meticulously cared for than one that's been abused for 24 hours, but how can I tell unless I was there for all of it? Other than battle wounds, hours are one of the easiest to discover tell-tales.
    Sensors do age as well. As time goes on they develop more and more dead pixels. Eventually you can't map them all out...

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  5. #235  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    Hey.

    Here’s some examples of the in-camera scaling. 8K and 4K shots along with some off speed work as well..

    https://vimeo.com/440479199


    JB
    Thank you for providing the footage. Did you, or are you planning, to shoot wide shots. I mean really wide shots. That would be the best way to evaluate 12k. Even a 2k camera can appear very sharp with closeups.
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  6. #236  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Zananiri View Post
    Thank you for providing the footage. Did you, or are you planning, to shoot wide shots. I mean really wide shots. That would be the best way to evaluate 12k. Even a 2k camera can appear very sharp with closeups.
    Quite a few of those shots were 21mm shots ?

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  7. #237  
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    I've been trying to figure out what it is about the footage from this camera that seems special. We've all seen higher resolution video downsized, extremely sharp lenses, etc., so I was trying to figure out what it is specifically about the sensor that is contributing to the uniqueness of the image. I believe I have it figured out.

    This is the first time we have a pure black and white capture being used as the luma in a color image.

    This sensor is not only 12K, it's also an 8.5K purely monochrome sensor.

    We know from their patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190306472A1) that Blackmagic is using a checkerboard pattern for the clear sensor elements. So, those clear photosites are now in the same pattern that Green photosites would otherwise be on a Bayer pattern sensor.

    So, the math to figure out the basic minimum luma resolution is the same as Bayer. This is an 79.6 megapixel sensor, so there are 39.8 megapixels worth of clear photosites, which is just about 8.5K. (8.5K 17:9 would be 8704x4608 which is 40.1 MP. 8K 17:9 is only 35.4 MP.)

    This is huge. This sensor gives the benefits of both color and monochrome sensors.

    All image subsampling that we use is based on the idea that the human brain responds to luma resolution more than chroma resolution. This is the first color sensor in a cinema camera that also gives us unfiltered luma - more of what we respond to.

    Virtually all the digital color images, moving or not, that we have seen since the dawning of the technology have had their luminance filtered, mainly by green.

    We are seeing a pure unfiltered luminance combined with a high chrominance for the first time and it looks special.

    It's as if a giant green filter was removed from our field of view.

    And 8.5K is the bare minimum of luma resolution. Since this is in a Bayer type pattern for luma, the same benefits should apply. Most people (including Graeme: https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/exc...rs-resolution/) estimate the true luma resolution of Bayer to be 80% of the total resolution. If that held true for this, then we would be closer to a 9.6K monochrome sensor.

    And, on top of all of this, the clear photosites are most likely capturing more chrominance resolution than a Bayer pattern would, because, as I posted earlier, you can use subtraction from the nearby photosites to work out the color that the clear photosite is capturing. If that is the case, chrominance resolution is increased because the clear photosite is contributing double or triple the color information than a filtered photosite would. And, in general, the filtered Red and Blue photosites are in a ratio to green that is 33% more than they would be on a Bayer pattern. The bottom line is that there should also be more chrominance resolution than there would be in an equivalent 12K Bayer.

    This sensor is truly something special.
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  8. #238  
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    Have to say I’m impressed with these. Blackmagic really did it this time and am seriously considering this camera.
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  9. #239  
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    It's an interesting sensor and if I understand purely how they are tapping into the clear or clear-ish pixels it's to assist with light gathering and generally dynamic range likely due to the microlenses being small at 2.2 microns. Solid way to go actually for this particular sensor.

    Bayer did a load of research (as did a bunch of other people) and human visual is indeed more sensitive to green on how we perceive light which is why Bayer is a good way to go, but it's neat to see some new angles here. TL;DR green lights up two of our three cones due to it's wavelength.

    In this particular implementation of RGBT(or C or W or perhaps N) 6x6 it is indeed more interpolated color than other CFAs. And that makes the higher pixel count super useful.

    Not saying that's a bad thing, just saying it's the way it is. I am curious about color cross talk and other weird things we never talk about, but I'll know more once I can spend a week with the camera.

    I like seeing new sensor tech and track it closely all year long. One of the main reasons Foveon has yet to be implemented in a motion camera was mainly due to it's limitations in light gathering. But things have advanced much since their last attempt and I don't think I'd be afraid of an ISO 200-500 camera honestly if it had lovely color, but light gathering has increased and I'm betting they can do a few things to get that working. That's a whole different beast though with it's layer stack and I do wish they didn't market it the way they have in the past. Similar to Sony's F65 8K debacle, though a camera I enjoyed.

    I personally think we're at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to wild sensor designs. Some of the stuff in the last 5 years that we have now is pretty amazing and most people don't even know what they are using. Curious what the heck this decade drops. Something occurred to me a bit ago in the mid 2010s when Canon was working on multi-layer sensors and there's been some other new developments. I'm actually painfully excited about what and where some of that potential leads. We're dangerously close to something all image makers would want.
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  10. #240  
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    Many thanks for these John. The images look beautiful! And it's great to be able to see the 4K 220fps Super16 crop, which from your video looks like it holds up well. Us natural history cameramen will be very interested in that feature.

    I'd be interested to know if anyone could hazard a guess how they think this camera may perform in low light given what we know about the sensor. I know it's not dual ISO, but would a 12K sensor likely make much difference for noise in low light? I noticed in Davinci Resolve that the ISO control on the 12K raw footage seems to top out at 3200ISO so presumably that's as high as it goes.
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