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  #31  
    Fire Chief Jarred Land's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Harvey View Post
    From a design perspective, why so little difference between HQ and MQ? If the file size is only about 10% smaller, it makes it feel like the choice between the two is almost arbitrary--
    That's just what it is now ( in beta form ) , MQ data rate is quality based ( from a design perspective ) and not data footprint based, which means MQ we target a visual quality of what would compare to 7:1 or 8:1 in Redcode on a DSMC2 camera. As we tune things and improve the compression, the visual quality will stay the same but the actual MB/s should go down. Nothing really novel about that, it is how we have done it since the start. We will always, like we have in the past, pick higher data rate for better quality even if it is just temporary.
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  2. #32  
    Member Johannes Helms's Avatar
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    HAPPY BIRTHDAY PHIL and thanks so much for all the amazing knowledge, experience, and perspective you are dropping on us!

    Just watched your livestream with Scott from May and didn't know that you did all the mesmerizing apple screensavers! I always tried to guess what framerate this was shot on and how fast the helis flew. It's like almost frozen, especially the Hong Kong one. :D
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  3. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    As we tune things and improve the compression, the visual quality will stay the same but the actual MB/s should go down. Nothing really novel about that, it is how we have done it since the start.
    Thanks for clarifying. And that's great news!
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  4. #34  
    Senior Member Bastien Tribalat's Avatar
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    Thanks Phil and Jarred for those very awesome informations.
    Makes a lot of sense. I hope LQ will offer a more manageable data footprint for me but anyways, that's great.
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  5. #35  
    Thanks for the detailed clarification. It felt indeed strange that the info was kind of out but obviously talked around - which is maybe just because the usual communication is so open & clear about the rest of the camera. It was just this contrast in communication I guess.

    But thanks for the detailed clarification!

    For me, a data rate based HQ and a quality based MQ setting already make sense on their own. LQ for when it really doesn't matter that much..
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  6.   This is the last RED TEAM post in this thread.   #36  
    Fire Chief Jarred Land's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas Eymannsberger View Post
    Thanks for the detailed clarification. It felt indeed strange that the info was kind of out but obviously talked around - which is maybe just because the usual communication is so open & clear about the rest of the camera. It was just this contrast in communication I guess.

    But thanks for the detailed clarification!

    For me, a data rate based HQ and a quality based MQ setting already make sense on their own. LQ for when it really doesn't matter that much..
    Camera still isn't officially out remember there is no spec officially released... and LQ we still havn't landed on where we want it to be. Not really talked about because it really isn't that big of a deal. And yes, your breakdown is exactly the right mindset.
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  7. #37  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    With Komodo, and DSMC3 to come, we'll have DCT - discrete cosine based RedCode instead of the wavelet based (JP2K) version going back to R1.

    The most notable trade off being file size vs decoding complexity. Assuming the final IQ is similar, then the issue is data footprint vs computer resources. With storage devices and I/O getting better and cheaper, RED sees greater utility in a DCT based topology that allows real time playback/output on modest hardware.

    Are we just trading the cost of beefy GPUs in hot rod systems for bigger RAIDs? To some degree, we are. That said, especially assuming storage costs continue to drop, it would seem to be a better tack. For example. In most cases, the cost of the computer hardware is a capital expense paid off over time by you and/or the post house. Storage, OTOH, is typically something you can invoice per project to the client.

    There's also the user experience. If your computer can't playback DWT based R3Ds smoothly, or requires 1/4 res or less to do so, it's a bummer. Yes, a 4TB SSD will cost more than a 1TB SSD, but, since you're saving on the processing hardware, total cost might actually be lower. It also means that collaborators who don't have shredder computers will still be able to work with the R3Ds natively instead of requiring a transcoded RGB or proxy file.

    What I'm curious to see is how producers/post vendors respond. The usual refrain is fear of large data footprints and their attendant costs. Then there's the pushback on higher resolutions than required for the primary deliverables - why deal with 4K/6K/8K/12K for a 1080/2K master? Most RedUsers understand the power of oversampling/supersampling - particularly with CFA tech like Bayer - but for producers on the hunt for any way to shave costs...

    Cheers - #19
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  8. #38  
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    With a different process to data wrangling between DSMC2 (now the dominant form) and Komodo/DSMC3, might it be possible or make sense to come out with a new version of firmware for DSMC2 that incorporates DCT recording as an option? This might be helpful in a mixed environment with DSMC2/Komodo/DSMC3 cameras all being able to be decoded with the same ease in post? Otherwise, the benefits of this in Komodo when used with several DSMC2 cams will be marginal until there is a complete switchover to DSMC3, which is going to be awhile. For those recording in DSMC2 at low compression, the hit to media will be modest, but perhaps this is not possible with the existing architecture?

    And one more question: Phil says at the beginning of this thread, "And not to get too spicy, but yes, Apple has chosen a DCT scheme for their ProRes RAW". -- Could this mean that with this new compression method that this might be more easily implemented by the Apple Mac Pro's Afterburner card, which is optimized for ProRes RAW?" That would be sweet!
    Last edited by Jon Dishler; 07-24-2020 at 12:44 PM.
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  9. #39  
    Senior Member Blair S. Paulsen's Avatar
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    I'd expect the encoder on the DSMC2 cameras is purpose built ASIC for DWT RedCode, so not able to author DCT RedCode. Even if I'm wrong and it's a FPGA, the second issue would be max quality of a DCT bitstream at 300MB/s, which I understand to be the write speed limit of the mini-RedMags. In a theoretical world I see the allure of an all DCT based ecosystem, but as a practical matter I don't think that's going to happen.

    An efficient, client side heavy codec was exactly what we needed to get the digital cinema train out of the station. Now that writing to compact, commodity media in camera at >500MB/s is viable - proposed flavors of CF Express potentially quite a bit more - lower compression ratios and less complex codecs can be employed. Thanks to the ever dropping cost of storage, the bigger data footprint is no longer a killer. Before long we'll forget what wavelets even are... ;-)

    Cheers - #19
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  10. #40  
    Excellent info and summary, Phil! And happy birthday! Even though I'm over a day late...
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