Thread: New to Red Ranger Gemini - General Shooting Advice for a Feature

Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17
  1. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignacio Aguilar View Post
    Thank you. If I can really have such a clean image as Alexa 800 ISO with the Gemini rated at 1600 ISO in standard mode, then I'll probably stick to that and leave LL mode for desperate situations, or when I have to open up the lenses a bit more than T2.8.
    I'm not sure but I don't think you can shoot 2:1 24p full sensor, or? Might be me that's used to Monster where highest bitrate at FF get lowered when adding proxies. But you might be right that Gemini have low enough resolution to allow for 2:1 r3d and proxy on the side. But what I mean is for chroma key shots the more bitrate you can give the r3d the better.

    I don't mean Panavision gear but the DXL lut, think its this one, can not test here as I'm on my phone, so let me know if it looks completely off then I can go fetch the right one: https://f.io/aO_7ya2z

    But put it in a folder named "lut" on the mag and import to camera and set the camera to use it with RWG and rec709 conversion with medium / soft.

    I find the above to be a very pleasing starting point that gives a nice filmic texture if exposing for 1600ISO.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    VFX / Flame / Motion capture / Monstro
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #12  
    Senior Member Ignacio Aguilar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    533
    Hello Björn,

    The DXL LUT doesn't seem to work with the Gemini. The image looks way overexposed and oversaturated.

    I have done a preliminary test with the camera and Full Height 5K 1.7:1 it allows 3:1 compression plus 2K Prores LT, but no 2:1 compression even without dailies. Since I'll be shooting 5K 6:5 anamorphic I will be able to shoot greenscreen at 2:1 compression with LT dailies as well, leaving the non-greenscreen stuff at 3:1, which should be enough.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #13  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    1,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignacio Aguilar View Post
    The DXL LUT doesn't seem to work with the Gemini. The image looks way overexposed and oversaturated.
    Reduce ISO by 1 stop or switch to ISO Cal 1. The pana lut has the built in IPP2 ISO calibration 2 "push" built into it, so if you're stacking ISO cal 2 with the pana lut, you're now boosting a stop extra than intended.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #14  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,024
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    But put it in a folder named "lut" on the mag and import to camera and set the camera to use it with RWG and rec709 conversion with medium / soft.

    I find the above to be a very pleasing starting point that gives a nice filmic texture if exposing for 1600ISO.
    Are you sure it's supposed to be BT1886 with med/soft for tone/highlight? I was under the impression it was supposed to be RWG/3GLog10 with no conversions (as Panavision didn't want an extra layer of potential confusion via the selectable tone/highlight mapping of IPP2).

    Also worth noting that the LUT was originally designed to work with RED's own LLO OLPF on the Dragon VV in the original DXL. I'm not sure if it was changed/tweaked when they introduced DXL2 (which was Monstro + Panavision's custom PXpro OLPF), but even with DXL2 plenty of productions still opted for the LLO instead of PXpro. Similarly, Monstro can be rated at ISO1600 *with* the additional ~stop push of the LUT and still be quite useable/clean (which is a ~two stop highlight protection, helping balance the over/under exposure).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #15  
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    2
    I just tested out my Gemini for the first time and I feel that 3200LL is actually pretty noisy for a "base" ISO, even when exposed properly. My perspective/subjective opinion is coming from the Scarlet-W and I've never used film. But I was expecting a well-exposed 3200LL to be almost as clean as 800 Standard.

    I guess that's just not how it works, or I'm doing something wrong.

    (I'm newer to online forums than I am to filmmaking)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #16  
    Senior Member Tommaso Alvisi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ITALY
    Posts
    2,244
    It's normal Gemini behavior to be noisy at 3200LL.

    I actually found Gemini slightly noisier than Dragon at base 800 so...

    At 1600LL and up is slightly cleaner than Dragon at the same ISO value tho...
    TOMMASO ALVISI | tommasoalvisi.com
    Weapon 6K Carbon Fiber #1605 aka qp
    instagram | twitter
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #17  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam_Kyle View Post
    I just tested out my Gemini for the first time and I feel that 3200LL is actually pretty noisy for a "base" ISO, even when exposed properly. My perspective/subjective opinion is coming from the Scarlet-W and I've never used film. But I was expecting a well-exposed 3200LL to be almost as clean as 800 Standard.

    I guess that's just not how it works, or I'm doing something wrong.

    (I'm newer to online forums than I am to filmmaking)
    You are right.


    The OP asked for "personal views" more or less. So, my uses are not the norm. I was replying to his question. If this thread becomes a sort of guide to exposing with the Gemini, I would be a lot more conservative about my statements.


    iso32000LL has noise, but for a cinema camera in "2019", there is usable, there is noisy, and then there is FPN mess. If a camera is "usable" before noise reduction, then it is "clean" with noise reduction. So it gets murky, on what should be said.


    However, recently, I was shooting under cloudy weather, with very little dynamic range between highlights and shadows, so I shot in iso800LL because I was shooting 3K slomo, I wanted as clean as possible. buuuuuuurt, guess what? Yeah, I have noise. totally unexpected, considering I often use iso 1600 in standard mode with standard Olpf.

    The Gemini is a nice sensor, but one thing it is not: it is NOT a low light monster. It isn't a vampire either, or all that marketing BS. In fact, I think the Gemini could have been a successful sensor had it NOT been advertised as a low light cinema camera. Because, there are low light cameras and a bunch of cameras that add noise reduction in camera. Because, at best, the Gemini is about a stop faster. You get to iso 3200 usable, and that was were most older cinema cameras completely gave out, BUT, and that is a big but, you are only getting to iso 3200. everything after that is super subjective. Considering most low budget cameras do iso 3200 in their sleep, and the Sony Venice and MiniLF also being able to handle it, there is just no place for the Gemini to pretend to be some low light king. It is better-ish in low light.

    If a client is "savvy" enough to know about the Gemini sensor, and thinks it is a "low light beast" I shut that down pretty quickly. Sure, we can get "usable" iso 4000 for a grungy music video, doesn't mean you can shoot a film in moonlight and be clean.

    However, if you are on a project with, let's say Angeniux compact zooms, and at the end of the day, you really need an extra stop of light.... well, you have it. That one stop is more important than most realize.


    I actually did not buy the Gemini for low light capability, because I used it before I bought it, and knew it was only marginally faster. It was the dynamic range in daylight that won me over. I even tested it against the C500mkii and Arri Mini, and idk, it is closer to the C500mkii in DR, but somehow it gives me better results at times. The Canon EOS series seems to add noise reduction early on, so once you dig into the shadows, you quickly get into the noise floor, because the camera has already done half the noise work for you. But in this era of 6K and 8K, and cameras like the A7s series, people are beginning to expect fine grain and or no noise. The Gemini unfortunatlely has some fat pixels, so that grain shows up pretty quickly. BUT, and this is another big but, as a result, the Gemini might seem noisier at lower iso, while then surpassing the Dragon or whatever at higher iso's. Those big pixels aren't for free. And because RED only uses off the shelf technology, they don't have the DGO or any other custom tricks that other brands use. Heck, RED has a hard time even finish building a camera, let alone get it right. But with care, you can still use these expensive sensors to your, and your clients, advantage.
    Ranger Gemini
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts