Thread: New to Red Ranger Gemini - General Shooting Advice for a Feature

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  1. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignacio Aguilar View Post
    Thank you. If I can really have such a clean image as Alexa 800 ISO with the Gemini rated at 1600 ISO in standard mode, then I'll probably stick to that and leave LL mode for desperate situations, or when I have to open up the lenses a bit more than T2.8.
    I'm not sure but I don't think you can shoot 2:1 24p full sensor, or? Might be me that's used to Monster where highest bitrate at FF get lowered when adding proxies. But you might be right that Gemini have low enough resolution to allow for 2:1 r3d and proxy on the side. But what I mean is for chroma key shots the more bitrate you can give the r3d the better.

    I don't mean Panavision gear but the DXL lut, think its this one, can not test here as I'm on my phone, so let me know if it looks completely off then I can go fetch the right one: https://f.io/aO_7ya2z

    But put it in a folder named "lut" on the mag and import to camera and set the camera to use it with RWG and rec709 conversion with medium / soft.

    I find the above to be a very pleasing starting point that gives a nice filmic texture if exposing for 1600ISO.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Ignacio Aguilar's Avatar
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    Hello Björn,

    The DXL LUT doesn't seem to work with the Gemini. The image looks way overexposed and oversaturated.

    I have done a preliminary test with the camera and Full Height 5K 1.7:1 it allows 3:1 compression plus 2K Prores LT, but no 2:1 compression even without dailies. Since I'll be shooting 5K 6:5 anamorphic I will be able to shoot greenscreen at 2:1 compression with LT dailies as well, leaving the non-greenscreen stuff at 3:1, which should be enough.
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignacio Aguilar View Post
    The DXL LUT doesn't seem to work with the Gemini. The image looks way overexposed and oversaturated.
    Reduce ISO by 1 stop or switch to ISO Cal 1. The pana lut has the built in IPP2 ISO calibration 2 "push" built into it, so if you're stacking ISO cal 2 with the pana lut, you're now boosting a stop extra than intended.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    But put it in a folder named "lut" on the mag and import to camera and set the camera to use it with RWG and rec709 conversion with medium / soft.

    I find the above to be a very pleasing starting point that gives a nice filmic texture if exposing for 1600ISO.
    Are you sure it's supposed to be BT1886 with med/soft for tone/highlight? I was under the impression it was supposed to be RWG/3GLog10 with no conversions (as Panavision didn't want an extra layer of potential confusion via the selectable tone/highlight mapping of IPP2).

    Also worth noting that the LUT was originally designed to work with RED's own LLO OLPF on the Dragon VV in the original DXL. I'm not sure if it was changed/tweaked when they introduced DXL2 (which was Monstro + Panavision's custom PXpro OLPF), but even with DXL2 plenty of productions still opted for the LLO instead of PXpro. Similarly, Monstro can be rated at ISO1600 *with* the additional ~stop push of the LUT and still be quite useable/clean (which is a ~two stop highlight protection, helping balance the over/under exposure).
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  5. #15  
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    I just tested out my Gemini for the first time and I feel that 3200LL is actually pretty noisy for a "base" ISO, even when exposed properly. My perspective/subjective opinion is coming from the Scarlet-W and I've never used film. But I was expecting a well-exposed 3200LL to be almost as clean as 800 Standard.

    I guess that's just not how it works, or I'm doing something wrong.

    (I'm newer to online forums than I am to filmmaking)
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Tommaso Alvisi's Avatar
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    It's normal Gemini behavior to be noisy at 3200LL.

    I actually found Gemini slightly noisier than Dragon at base 800 so...

    At 1600LL and up is slightly cleaner than Dragon at the same ISO value tho...
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member Ignacio Aguilar's Avatar
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    The Gemini looks very good but there is noise, as Tommaso says, pretty much like in the Dragon sensor. No matter what ISO setting you use, you really need to "activate" the sensor using light. I did quite a lot of 1600LL shooting during my feature film with the Standard OLPF and used the exposure compensation (-2.0, -1.5, -1, -0.5) whenever I could to previsualize a darker image but still capturing as much light as I could. So I was effectively shooting LL with a 400 to 1600 ISO with a dynamic range oriented towards the shadows (I was doing forests night exteriors).

    The camera holds well enough if you go the full LL route and use something like 2500-3200 ISO with the minimum compression. You just have to make sure not to underexpose (ETTR as much as possible) and calibrate the black shadings very accurately (my tests show it's much better to stick to 38ºC or 39ºC, and you have to be very serious about that) and be open to use a little bit of chroma noise reduction or D.E.B. in Davinci, just like we all did with Dragon when it came out with the Skin-tone highlight OLPF. But I'd rather not go beyond 1600 LL with the Gemini and open up the iris a bit (or add more light) unless it's a desperate situation.
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Ignacio Aguilar's Avatar
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    I was wondering if anyone has ever used Kippertie's difussion OLPFs together with the Gemini, and if the experience has been good. I may have un upcoming big project for this camera and using sharp, modern glass (such as Canon CN-E or Ultra Primes) with a little diffusion in the back seems tempting.

    Also, anyone has ever addressed if the Low Light OLPF has any benefit in terms of reduction of noise and highlight protection? With DSMC1 it had about half a stop less highlight protection but you gained another stop of noise-free shadows.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Brendan H. Banks's Avatar
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    I haven't read through everything Ignacio but here are my hot tips as I've just gotten comfy with Gemini after changing from Helium.

    1) It's a camera. You can shoot with different cameras and get the same result. Generally whatever you were doing on other cameras will still work, no need to rethink from the ground up
    2) Compression: I like 4:1 or 5:1 generally for narrative work. I like staying 4:1 for LL mode and that has provided solid results.
    3) Anamorphic: It's stunning on gemini. Can't say much more than how much I like shooting at full sensor coverage that way. It's really special.
    4) LL mode: a buddy of mine made a recommendation and I have found success with it. Rate your LL mode stuff at 2000 or 2500 if you can. I am usually using it to get a nighttime scene so I'm not worried about highlight retention at the highest end. Works great.
    5) I like to blackshade at 43c. It works well for me.
    6) I use Kippertie diffusion OLPFs. I shot an entire feature on Helium, Carbon 2, and a set of cine-modded Canon FD lenses (trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeYWT7CnFK0). I like Carbon 1 as a base layer for a lot of work. You use the STH emulation.
    7) ISO rating: lots of people have different feelings here, it's all relative. I personally liked rating Helium at 1000 or 1280 even though it added some texture. At lower compressions it's far less chroma and I don't find it to be noisy just yet. Gemini I feel the same. I did daylight scenes recently at 1000 on Gemini and ND'd down and I'm really happy with the results.
    8) If you're coming from Dragon/Mysterium then remember, 800iso on Gemini with be TWO TIMES AS BRIGHT as 800iso on Dragon. There is an updated calibration by Red to bring their ISO ranges into line with convention. It's a little bonus :)
    9) Look/LUT: really recommend you get the cam in your hands before you start shooting. If you can't what I'd recommend is dialing your look roughly on whatever Red camera you have access to, but process that look in the same raw pipeline you plan on for the feature. You can make small adjustments to the LUT after you've shot a bit.

    I'll sub to this thread, hit me if you have any questions. You'll dig the gemini switch I think.


    EDIT: Just realized this thread is from a while ago and you seem to have shot on Gemini since. Leaving everything for anyone else who stumbles across.
    Last edited by Brendan H. Banks; 11-24-2020 at 10:38 AM.
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Ignacio Aguilar's Avatar
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    Hello Brendan, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    It's interesting what you say about black shading at 43. I have done several tests (at 33, 38 and 45 among other temperatures) and found much better results at 38. I will post some R3D's as I'm not 100% convinced that I'm getting good black levels and want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.

    Personally I'll be rating the camera somewhere between 250 ISO and 800 ISO in standard depending on how much highlight retention I need, and I would use higher ISO than 1600 LL just for desperate situations. In fact I shot quite a lot of LL with -1 exposure compensation (which is really 800 ISO LL) to fed the camera with more light while having my latitude oriented towards my shadows. Being careful with my highlights wasn't a big deal on a forest at night since there were not too many! I would appreciate if RED offers 800 ISO in LL mode straight from the main menu, as having to access it through submenus is not as easier and it really improves the noise floor if you want clean shadows. But somehow, I just honestly feel the Gemini needs more light than the Alexa at equivalent ISO, which shouldn't be that way since the updated calibration.
    Last edited by Ignacio Aguilar; 11-25-2020 at 12:04 PM.
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