Thread: The PAL problem

Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 52
  1. #31  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,368
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    But Christoffer, For what productions would you roll with 50p as project framerate.
    It's for the convenience of production, not timebase. If you are working fast, switching between framerates, you will want to have something that in post you realize flickers the lights.
    And then, if HDRx is ever implemented to this camera, it's not gonna happen that 25 fps projects can use this and managing and keeping track of shots that needs to be converted from 24 to 25 fps is fine in theory, but in practice it never works. Just getting colorists to handle HDRx material that's being marked when shooting is a hassle.

    It's just unnecessary to have a camera 2 frames off in PAL regions. As I mentioned, why not have 6K 40 fps, 5K 50 fps and 4K 60 fps. Makes more sense over regional differences. Why having to fix things when there can be a perfectly balanced option directly in-camera? I rather shoot with a 4.7 or 4.8K mode with 50 fps than 5K 48 fps having to convert everything while shooting. If you ever shot anything that needs fast changes during the shoot, you know how often problems occur that can ruin shots. Minimizing these is the best route in my opinion. Especially if you have a mix of different levels of experienced people on location. Sometimes when I direct something, I have to explain things to people who should be the ones explaining to me, just because unnecessarily complex stuff exists because they were designed like that in the first place.

    If there's no way to reach 5K 50 fps, I think a special shooting resolution for 50 fps is a good option. At least having that option would make life easier and I don't think that's a huge demand for upcoming firmware changes.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #32  
    Senior Member John Marchant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Normandy, England
    Posts
    2,169
    Easiest solution would be to shoot 6K WS and crop the edges. Then you get 50fps at almost identical vertical resolution, and bonus overscan left and right ;)

    Vertical scan height is historically the limiting factor for frame rate. 6K 40 / 5k 48 tallies with this. 6KWS is a scant 100 pixels less height than 5K.
    KipperTie - Authorised RED Rental, Pinewood Studios, UK
    Ready to hire: Monstro 8K VV | Gemini 5K | Helium Monochrome 8K
    Check out our Revolva ND solution, OLPFs and other products
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #33  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    982
    Quote Originally Posted by Bastien Tribalat View Post
    Well, I hear you (coming from a "pal country") but you have to take into account that RED is making CINEMA cameras. You can use them for anything you want BUT they are tailored for cinema/fiction/commercials and in those industry you either shoot for screenings in theater (24fps or 48fps if HFR cinema is still a thing) or for HD/UHD TV (23.976 or 29.967 fps in NTSC countries and 25fps in PAL regions). Plus, with the change from DWT to DCT compression on Redcode because of how small the camera is I'm pretty sure if they could have done 50fps at 6K, they would have but it's a technical limitation (and again, since the camera is made primarly for use on features and TV series that's ok).

    Maybe in the future they can put the 5K@50fps via firmware update but for the moment you would have to settle for 50fps at a m4/3-ish crop at 4K on Komodo.
    OMG...you deserve 2 Komodos now. i am amazed by your silly response here. 50P is essential for PAL Video Production full stop. So stop Sugarcoating all the time.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #34  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sweden & France
    Posts
    338
    It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds, but the real wish here is to hear somebody with the relevant expertise from RED chime-in?

    Those two frames mightn't be so easy to implement - fair enough - but it would be good to know why?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #35  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    982
    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds, but the real wish here is to hear somebody with the relevant expertise from RED chime-in?

    Those two frames mightn't be so easy to implement - fair enough - but it would be good to know why?
    Try to explain it to most of the Producers out there....all cameras should be 50/60P.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #36  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds,
    This has always been the case, that camera and sensor design make US / Japanese centric decisions based on domestic power. Sony and Panasonic / Canon seem to be the same. Panasonic would often take 18 months to release the 50Hz version of a high end camera in Australia...

    Literally the rest of the world wants something else, and the users in those 60Hz markets always seem to not really understand why we’re all agitated.

    Let’s flip it. I wonder if one COULDN’T have 48, and it only went to 46 would you 60Hz users be happy “working around” that ?

    JB
    John Brawley ACS
    Cinematographer
    Los Angeles
    www.johnbrawley.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #37  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,024
    It was the same with the Scarlet-X/Scarlet-Dragon... And they never got the two extra frames.

    Fortunately, when you set the timebase to 25fps, you can still use 48fps to slowdown to a ~52% playback speed.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #38  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,368
    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    It's all about convenience, there are always work-arounds, but the real wish here is to hear somebody with the relevant expertise from RED chime-in?

    Those two frames mightn't be so easy to implement - fair enough - but it would be good to know why?
    And even if they're not easy to implement due to hardware limitations or whatnot, the ability to have a resolution maximization for 2:1 or 16:9 50 fps, and for 48 fps PAL based shutter sync as a fast option in-camera would be such a small effort in order to make things easier for PAL based people.

    If 2 frames extra in 5K mode is impossible, let at least the workarounds be a flip away.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #39  
    Senior Member Satsuki Murashige's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    If 2 frames extra in 5K mode is impossible, let at least the workarounds be a flip away.
    You can change the shutter angle to 172.8 to avoid 50Hz flicker at 48fps.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #40  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sweden & France
    Posts
    338
    It's kind how our NTSC friends keep offering workarounds but that is not really the question that is being asked.

    If you have a 24fps based production and need to increase the frame rate for a simple shot to more or less double.
    In most cases, would you prefer to use 46 or 48 ? I would 'guess' a straight line.

    We (the 25fps PAL community) would like to understand what prevents having those two extra frames that would take us to 50 ?

    Is it an enormous technical problem ?
    Too costly?
    Political (60 vs 50) ?
    Camera manufacturers hate PAL and are just lazy ?! :))


    As 'Kipper' John mentions above; maybe the vertical scan height is the limiting factor for frame rate.
    Whatever it is, it would be good to know ?

    Are there any RED technicians or other experts out there willing to throw a little light on the subject ?
    Or just fix it !
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts