Thread: Canon EOS C70

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  1. #41  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/t...age-processing

    It’s 16-bit linear which is converted and stored as 12-bit log, according to Arri spec sheet.
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/t...age-processing

    Its 16-bit linear which is converted to 12-bit after the debayering, according to Arri spec sheet.
    Yes! Surely you don't think Arri is throwing away 4 bits of usable data there, right?

    EG can you see why this previous statement where you critcize the C70 for storing at 10bit and say it has 64 times less tonal / color range doesn't make sense then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    Btw 10 bit is 1024 color/tonal values, while 16bit is 65,536 color/tonal values. Literally, it's a 64 times difference. 10bit can look good enough out of the box, but dipping into commercial color grading - na-ha.
    I would also encourage you take some LogC Alexa footage and convert from 12 to 10bit. Then run it through a grade. You'll find not much is lost.

    My point being: storing below 16bit doesn't make an image "cheap", if you store it the right way (log curve). Which C70 does.

    Bruce Allen
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  3. #43  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    Well, if you literally don’t see any difference between recording 10-bit HEVC (h265) and 12-bit log raw, or 16-bit linear raw, I don’t think something could make you think the other way, no matter the information provided.

    Try converting Alexa/Gemini/Venice footage to 10-bit long-gop h265 and then compare. I bet the difference is obvious.
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  4. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    A can't claim or judge anything I haven't tested myself certainly. I'm judging over the tests I've seen over the web - none of those cameras are available at local rentals, except for FX9 (played around for a while, but didn't do a proper test). You're totally right about caucasian skin tone and the face highlight, but it's not better compared to FX9, and we all know FX9 DR isn't anything near Venice/Alexa/Gemini range. Again, I see no reason to pull back shadows on Canon, never really needed to, and even wanted to, so to me it's what you see - is what you get.

    I've done tests myself of Alexa Mini, Mini LF, Venice, Gemini, Helium, MX, Monstro, F55 in recent year or so. The IQ is there and it's pretty much 1-3 stops difference between those, you can totally work with any camera and be happy with the result.

    Also I've shot several projects with C300 mk I & II, fx7 mk I & II, EVA, Varicam LT. Each has it's strong sides and weak sides - I loved the c300 ergonomics, hated the menu, noise pattern, oversaturated blues. Eva has nice colors and the image to me was the best of those three (canon, sony, panasonic). Both Eva/Varicam had totally bad weight/balance and ergonomics. FX7 wasn't my favourite camera at all - I didn't like the colors out of the box, the ergonomics where not my favourite. Sony menu system is a mess. But, it's all about past cameras and the FX9 seem to have much better color out of the box, the best one out of this range of cameras to my eye.

    Literally it's now about apples to oranges - just pick a thing comfortable to your use case. I just can't agree with a claim that this sensor has a better DR compared to Komodo/Gemini. It clearly does not.
    I like the EVA1, too, but can't understand the ergonomics, either.

    Does the Komodo really have as much dynamic range as the Gemini? I haven't used either, I think I worked on one Gemini job and was impressed by it. I found it to have the best image to my taste and best DR of any Red camera. But that's my entire experience with those cameras so I don't really know.

    I found the C200 to have very good highlight dynamic range (about a stop less than the Alexa at base 800, so more than anything except an Alexa or Varicam LT or Gemini) and noisy shadows, but I didn't like the .mp4 files or the raw workflow. So if this fixes the workflow and the shadows... could be pretty good. Not sure where this comes from, but it's impressive:



    Fwiw, as an experiment, I once took 12 bit Log C ProRes 4444 Alexa footage and ingested it in 8 bit in After Effects. And then rendered the file (in 12 bit, but having been ingested into an 8 bit timeline). And then I put a rec709 LUT and curves on both and A/B'd the footage. The Alexa has a noisy sensor, but the noise looks like film grain, and the result of this comparison was surprising. There wasn't any banding in either image or obvious loss of image quality. The 8 bit image just appeared slightly noisier, as if there were more contrast between values. But no additional banding or changes in color. In motion, I wonder if the difference was visible. Zoomed in to 200% on a still it was, but it wasn't dramatic.

    HEVC is a different story, sure, but bit depth alone didn't change as much as I'd expected. I tried the same thing with denoised footage and the 8 bit footage had much more banding.

    There's also a setting buried in resolve that can significantly reduce banding, some interpolation setting, and I found it totally changed how Canon Raw Lite, for instance, looks. (60p Canon raw lite being "15 stops" in a 10 bit log container. I found the image unacceptable until I changed this setting.)
    Last edited by Matt W.; 09-29-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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  5. #45  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    From my tests the Gemini is somewhere in a range of 1 stop less in highlights, compared to Alexa Mini in arriraw. It’s 1-1.3 or something like this. The c200 was something closer to MX in latitude, but much worse in shadows compared both to an MX and Alexa.

    In shadows the Alexa is equal to MX in arriraw, and 2 stops cleaner in prores. Gemini is much cleaner in shadows compared both to arriraw and prores.

    Basically judging on the tests online - Komodo is almost equal to Gemini in highlights, and even cleaner in shadows if you judge the iso800 base on Gemini. Of course, you can still go a higher base iso on Gemini, but I haven’t seen any tests comparing ISO800 on Komodo and 3200 on Gemini.

    Monstro has the most of DR I’ve used so-far, cleanest of all red sensors out there. Has some rolling shutter issues though.

    Also Komodo is the cleanest sensor of all red if you judge on grey tonality. Basically it’s as clean in grey as you can get, even Venice is not close in terms of tint in grey tones. I’ve seen such a clean grey tones only on Alexa cameras before.

    This new Canon sensor does seem to be cleaner in shadows compared to Gemini @800 iso (edit - it IS NOT, after messing with the footage myself a bit), but again - I was never the fan of clean shadow stops, loosing grain totally makes the image more digital to my eye. I love the grain on Alexa, MX and Ikonoscop D2 sensors - it adds some texture. Again, I never cope into shadows more than 1 stop, and only if I have messed up my lighting. I can hardly imagine a situation where Alexa or Mostro DR is not enough for a non-lit daylight scene. A Komodo, Helium or Gemini are all fine to me also, 1 stop less isn’t a dramatic issue to me.
    Last edited by Alex Lubensky; 09-30-2020 at 01:40 AM.
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  6. #46  
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    I don't know, I haven't worked much with the Gemini or with the Komodo at all. But Canon's +6.3 stop claim (at least in Canon Raw lite) on the C200 seemed spot on to me, and that's only 1-1.5 stops less than an Alexa. But I only worked with the Alexa shooting ProRes.

    Does Arriraw have more highlight detail than ProRes btw? Canon raw lite throws it out so I expect HEVC won't be any worse. But it seems BRAW has more than ProRes on the P6K. I don't mind a noisy image, but the C200's noise is kind of ugly. I think the real secret of the Alexa is that the noise looks like film grain.

    I haven't used the Komodo (or Gemini personally, just in post) or researched it much, so it's possible the Komodo is even better.
    Last edited by Matt W.; 09-29-2020 at 04:13 PM.
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  7. #47  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    Alexa definitely stores more highlight detail in arriraw compared to prores. It’s hard to tell how much exactly, but when I was testing two Alexa Mini cams for a feature film, we have chosen Arriraw over Prores 444XQ exactly because it was holding much more detail in muzzle fires.
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  8. #48  
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    Interesting... that makes sense.

    I'll still probably shoot ProRes lol.
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  9. #49  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Canon EOS C70 - First Shots: Skintone, LOG, 50p, Gimbal, Stabilisation



    By Slashcam

    Article-Translated to English
    https://www.translatetheweb.com/?ref...-uvm----.html#





    Canon C70 - riprese video da Cortona


    By DDay.it

    More shots of the Village/Town at the 1:59 minute mark to the end



    Last edited by rand thompson; 09-29-2020 at 06:14 PM.
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  10. #50  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Canon C70 XF-AVC .MXF files download from Korro Films






    Dropbox link
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/97zahw1ki...8I1TMc7Oa?dl=0


    Last edited by rand thompson; 09-29-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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