Thread: Canon EOS C70

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  1. #51  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Graded in ACEScct








    There appears to be some macro blocking on the girl whose pushing the other girl's legs. I also noticed it before I added a grade. Probably just low light noise.





    Last edited by rand thompson; 09-30-2020 at 12:47 AM.
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  2. #52  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Allen View Post
    This paragraph shows you don't understand how the dual gain sensor on the C70 / C300 mk3 works (also you keep saying it's for slow-mo when dual gain actually turns OFF above 60fps if using the full sensor).

    The whole point of it is that compared to the C300 mk2 which was a bit noisy in the shadows, with thie new sensor you can expose 2 more stops under to protect the highlights BEFORE messing up color / noise / detail. Because 2 stops down, then it is using data from the second (optimized for higher gain and lower-noise) ADC pathway.

    This is a similar design to Arri's ALEV sensor. The difference is Canon mapped it by default so it's the same behavior as its predecessor to just lower noise. Whereas Arri mapped it by default so you have extra highlight detail.

    But it's EASY to map things the other way on either camera - on an Alexa if you want less noise, just rate your meter at lower ISO. On the C70, just rate your meter at higher ISO to protect highlights.

    With C70, in a studio where there is controllable dynamic range you would probably still expose as-is for the least noise.

    But if shooting outside, where there could be a wide dynamic range that you don't have full control over, you can safely go down 2 stops to protect skies / highlights more than you could with C300 mk2.


    Bruce Allen
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    So Rand has posted a link to the actual footage from C70. You were trying to pursue me for my words that it's not for commercial color grading and 10-bit c-log HEVC can't be graded as good as 12-bit log (16 bit linear) from Arri or Red.

    So I urge you to try some selective color nodes. My experience is - it does not, ant literally - it's day and night difference.

    Last edited by Alex Lubensky; 09-30-2020 at 07:32 AM.
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  3. #53  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    It's handling the grade exactly as I expected - kind of the same as C300 mk I. Again, as I was saying before - it's clearly not in the market of commercial production. Still great for basic stuff, easy to carry around, working out of the box for a oner in the field. You are correct - it's not a 64 times difference in linear numbers - it's day and night, day and night.
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  4. #54  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Lemniscus [shot on Canon C70]


    By Ovidiu Gramesc





    Hikaru Hirayama ~New Face | CANON CINEMA EOS C70


    By Ryusuke Okajima


    Last edited by rand thompson; 09-30-2020 at 08:34 AM.
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  5. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    It's handling the grade exactly as I expected - kind of the same as C300 mk I.
    I think you mean C300 mk2, but you'd still be objectively wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    Again, as I was saying before - it's clearly not in the market of commercial production.
    RED cameras have weird wavelet compression artefacts, grain, weird color artefacts, etc in the shadows too.

    So are they also not in the market for commercial production? What a silly statement.

    I've run Neat Video on RED footage for tons of commercial jobs - Jessica Jones, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, Last Week Tonight, Penny Dreadful...

    I recently directed a promo (can't say what) shot on Alexa LF. Guess what? Probably putting Neat Video on that too. Not because it NEEDS it but because it helps VFX and allows for slightly cleaner secondaries during grading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    You are correct - it's not a 64 times difference in linear numbers - it's day and night, day and night.
    You could just be nice and say "oh yeah, I messed up, I didn't know Alexa raw was 12bit log not 16bit linear and also I was wrong, it's not 64 times difference" but I think you just enjoy being argumentative :)

    Go and enjoy shooting buddy! You seem super passionate, go have fun.

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  6. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    So Rand has posted a link to the actual footage from C70. You were trying to pursue me for my words that it's not for commercial color grading and 10-bit c-log HEVC can't be graded as good as 12-bit log (16 bit linear) from Arri or Red.

    So I urge you to try some selective color nodes. My experience is - it does not, ant literally - it's day and night difference.

    The Komodo has a good deal of noise in the shadow as well. Joey Helms has some footage that you can download and see for yourself.

    https://bit.ly/3azG0Ot

    If you don't want to download it, this guy explains the situation.

    https://youtu.be/qho1AJJkx8Q?t=562

    I think both cameras are very capable. It's just about what you prefer. But I would say noise is almost equal on both. I think the Canon does have a bit more range to play with in the shadows though. The Canon DGO sensor definitely can be underexposed. You just have to figure out how to light for your camera
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  7. #57  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    From my limited experience with the Canon XF-AVC codec , I would say it grades fairly well and I have learned to appreciate it more than I initially did.

    I believe that some of the footage available for download above was shot at 120FPS. Use of the Digital Gain Output tops out at 60FPS, so that might explain some issues seen above. I am personally not above stating that this was my first time grading XF-AVC footage and user error in developing the image on my part could have also contributed to the issues I stated above. I couldn't find an official Canon C-log to Rec709 transform Lut so I just used one of the Canon IDTs in ACEScct.

    I was able to push color almost as far as I would want it with Red R3d files, but I didn't push it really hard but you never really need to. And I was also able to recover some Highlight detail with manual tone-mapping in ACEScct as well.


    I would like to try more 60FPS and below XF-AVC Intra and other flavors of XF-AVC footage to really better understand the true potential of DGO.
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  8. #58  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    I graded all 5 clips from the Korrofilm sample download and just put them together and exported a DNxHR LB 4K DCI file. I added Noise Reduction to the clip of girl pushing another girl in a swing from the tree.

    I will Upload the 2.74 GB DNxHR LB 4K DCI file to SENDGB

    SendGB Link-Good for 7 Days
    https://sendgb.com/dt5MDZTKb3U

    Last edited by rand thompson; 10-01-2020 at 11:29 AM.
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  9. #59  
    Senior Member Alex Lubensky's Avatar
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    The Komodo has a good deal of noise in the shadow as well. Joey Helms has some footage that you can download and see for yourself.
    I've downloaded it a long time ago, have played around for some time. It's really similar in response to Gemini.


    Otherwise - it's not a noise issue, it's a codec macro-blocking issue. I've downloaded and tried to grade two clips - one seem to be XF-AVC long-gop 10-bit, and second-one XF-AVC intra 10-bit. Both stot in c-log 2, both have same issues, blocking is obvious and you have to do a ton of work to do some quite simple color selects, which is common when you grade commercials or music videos. The clients are picky nowadays, they always want the bottle sticker to be the exact same color as on their design, and with c70 you just can't deliver it - that's all I'm trying to say. While it's totally not a bad camera for what it's designed for, to me it is just incomparable to any raw/prores camera on the market, even BMPCC4k in terms of post-production capabilities. You totally can do some basic grades, but I personally won't risk doing a commercial job on C70 - where you have a production house, client, agency etc.

    The video is a tad stubby, sorry for that.
    https://youtu.be/MseM74L3fus
    Last edited by Alex Lubensky; 10-01-2020 at 09:42 AM.
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  10. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Lubensky View Post
    So Rand has posted a link to the actual footage from C70. You were trying to pursue me for my words that it's not for commercial color grading and 10-bit c-log HEVC can't be graded as good as 12-bit log (16 bit linear) from Arri or Red.

    So I urge you to try some selective color nodes. My experience is - it does not, ant literally - it's day and night difference.

    Davinci seems pretty bad at selective color with anything compressed. I wonder if their is a better selection tool I am missing, as whenever I am working with compressed footage, I have to use about three different methods to effect on hue, or what not, hopefully they fix that. But otherwise, Danvinci Resolve is irreplaceable and still one of the best options.
    Last edited by James Sielaff; 10-01-2020 at 02:46 PM.
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