Thread: MONSTRO FAN

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  1. #11  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    To directly compare improvements there is a 'Baseline' mode. The Bare camera is plotted on the X axis, and the Y axis compares noise levels.

    What can be seen by the following is that the MONSTRO FANS transmit 6dB more noise through the TOP and FRONT of the camera when the FANs are at 20% - compared with when a the Noise Isolating HOOD is used.

    06 - Base Baseline

    +) The sound was measured with a Rode shotgun in front and to the right of the camera facing forward in both cases.
    +) Camera was about 5ft from the ground / standard UK ceiling height of 8ft.

    AJ
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  2. #12  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antony Newman View Post
    Thanks for the insight on hush boxes and suggest colour investigations Phil.

    +) In your own testing - did you reach an ideal temperature for your camera's sensor?

    +) Quiet Komodo : That's great news (I'll be joining the Komodo band wagon in 2021).
    Depends largely on the conditions I'm in, but 43C is about what it is at all times. I religiously utilize Adaptive Fan due to the algorithm and how it works. Image noise is rarely an issue for me. I barely use noise reduction software even, though lately for some clients with demanding HDR grades it's come back a bit. Ideally it's more important for me to get expected tonal performance given the calibration. I think Graeme posted here long ago about what this might do to the general DR as you are "tricking things" really. I mainly care about predictable and consistent results that can be tied to meters, across cameras, and maintain consistent crush and clip points.

    In terms of Sensor Calibration, I always run Manual on Monstro, which now RED even has updated in the firmware to make that more apparent, actually tells you what you should do for each sensor now. It gives you a very large useful shutter range and only takes about 8 minutes for the entire 8K sensor calibration. Depending on what I'm doing I run it once a day, once a week, or even once a month if I'm daring. About a minute per K if you think about it on all the bodies I believe.

    Komodo is significantly faster on the sensor cal front as well and I have to investigate all of that. I suspect future more powerful bodies will provide even more opportunity to refine that. RED does crazy things now including utilizing heaters on the sensor to ensure stable temp and quickly getting shooting temp close to boot. Komodo even has more temp readouts even across the camera.

    My general perspective, don't trick the fans or anything as you are changing the image and not doing anything meaningful in terms of lower noise when looking at the full exposure range.

    As for camera operation sound, I think we've been blimping cameras for about 100 years now. My Jacobson blimps used for stills on set back when I used to do that to snuff the mirror in slap used layered neoprene with an aluminum shell. More or less my chute is thicker neoprene curved out the rear of the body with a capping filter to not obstruct airflow, but rather diffuse sound. Just building that out of the top fan area provided a significant drop in dB and worked well.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    Pat,

    My guess is that majority of fan companies do not prioritize silence at low speed, and are only interested in air movement and pressure.

    Eg : The Blacknoise PM2 is a 40x40x20 mm fan vs the Delta Electronics AFB0412VHB-TP29 which is 40x40x15mm.

    +) Delta fan : Is 5mm thinner : 36.5dB max : Can move 11.7 m^3 / hr
    +) Blacknoise fan : 17.7dB Max : Can move 9.2 m^3 / hr

    The Blacknoise is almost inaudible at low speed - with a maximum sound level of 18.8 dB LOWER than the Delta at full speed.
    Just of 'fun' I bought 4 different Blacknoise fans. The amount of sound energy conducted through flimsy plastic was almost ZERO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    <snip> I still wonder why the engineers decided : <snip> - to use 2 small fans instead of a bigger one? <snip>
    Pat
    02 - Monstro - Hood - Fan

    AJ

    EDIT 1 : Clarification : I was suggesting that Red could consider upgrading the (Speculation) Delta fans with ones that are almost silent.
    The picture of the 'Chimney' attachment in Red is a larger single 80mm NB fan.

    EDIT 2 : The Delta Fan (which I speculate is in the Monstro) is actually 5mm thinner than the Blacknoise fan.
    Last edited by Antony Newman; 11-04-2020 at 06:43 PM.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    Here is the comparison of:

    +) RED : Monstro with no attachments
    +) YELLOW : Monstro + HOOD + CHIMNEY
    +) GREEN : Monstro + HOOD + CHIMNEY + BlackNoise_FAN at Max Speed

    What is impressive with the 80mm BLACKNOISE FAN at its top speed are almost inaudible.

    07 - Chimney

    AJ
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  5. #15  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    I still wonder why the engeneers decided :
    - to invert the heat flow from top to bottom of the camera?
    - to use 2 small fans instead of a bigger one?
    Jarred mentioned way, way long back that the inverted air flow worked better after a lot of testing in DSMC2's case.

    I suspect the 2nd question is more obvious than not. Especially with DXL and Ranger on the market now. DSMC2 was designed to be small. Much like Komodo which also has two fans. Ranger and DXL use bigger fans because well they are bigger.

    On narrative shoots fan noise really hasn't been an issue minus the occasional real tight space, similar to the other two main production brands out there really. Which is why I had to blimp. In that small 6x6' space I think I had camera about 3 feet from subject with the shotgun about 1 foot above her head. In that case with that room and all that, really needed to blimp it. On any other narrative work I've done I haven't needed it.

    But yes, I'm all for a silent camera. Which is why I was doing a double take on Komodo, because I wasn't expecting it to be quiet.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    The following was a test without (RED) and with (GREEN) 80mm NB-1 fan at 12V and the internal Monstro FANs at 20%.

    In a nutshell :
    +) With just the Monstro fans at 20% - the sensor temp creeped up to 51 deg C in 12 minutes.
    +) With the Monstro fans at 20% - and the NB-1 Fan switched on, the camera settled at 44 deg C.

    08 - Blacknoise

    AJ
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  7. #17  
    How would it work with a frozen cooling block on top. I guess then the fans would not need to run more than a fraction of normal speed.
    Björn Benckert
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    How would it work with a frozen cooling block on top. I guess then the fans would not need to run more than a fraction of normal speed.
    Biggest hurdle with cooling like that is condensation building up inside the camera or around the fan motors.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    Pat,

    When looking at the way the ADAPTIVE algorithm elects to play table tennis with the FAN SPEED - it looks like RED Very Rapidly slow the fan speed when the SENSOR is BELOW the TARGET TEMP. Conversely, when the SENSOR TEMP is the Same or Above the TARGET TEMP, they SLOWLY ramp up the fan speed.

    This 'avoiding' of the Sensor being below the TARGET TEMP would mirror descriptions of the MONSTRO preferring to be Hot than Cold.

    Unless I am mistaken - it is possible to set a TARGET TEMP for a calibration - and then MANUALLY set Fan speed throughout the calibration process (ie with a DIFFERENT SENSOR TEMP than the TARGET TEMP).
    In use, the BRAIN then aims for the TARGET TEMP that was set during calibration - allowing you to deliberately calibrate the Sensor for a temperature that is Just Below (say by 0.25 degrees C Below the TARGET TEMP).

    My strategy of getting the cleanest BlackShade is as follows:

    1) Choose a TARGET TEMP 'T' with the cleanest Min-Noise-at-high-ISO-test (ie non-sophisticated test)
    2) Use ADAPTIVE with TARGET TEMP = T for 15 mins -> Record Fan Speed
    3) Use ADAPTIVE with TARGET TEMP = T - 1 deg c for 15 mins -> Record Fan Speed
    4) Set ADAPTIVE TARGET TEMP to T
    5) Set MANUAL FAN speed (between (1) and (2)) to a point that Just causes the Sensor temp to dip into T-1 deg C
    6) Perform Calibration.

    This Calibration profile in ADAPTIVE will then ALMOST NEVER go below the actual SENSOR temp that the Calibration was performed.

    --

    In my cameras case, my (simple) noise test gave 43c and 44c as having minimum noise (at that temp and just above).
    I use a TARGET TEMP of 44c, and then manually set the Fan Speed during calibration that the SENSOR temp is approx 43.7 c.
    When recording in ADAPTIVE the camera does dip into '43c' - but only briefly, and likely not below 43.7c.

    As the Fan speed was set manually and a FIXED speed for the entire calibration (and I use a calibrated thermometer for the room to make sure the room has remained at exactly the same temp too) - My gut feeling is that this also creates a more 'perfect' black shade that when the Adaptive allows the Sensor temp to Drift during the calibration.

    AJ

    Edit : Also 46c calibration was my compromise temp (for audio) - as calibrations from 47c and above seem to loose colour details (density and hue).
    And 46c calibration still had a consistent set of results at 46-49c.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Tresch View Post
    <snip>

    I calibrated my sensor to 48c.
    Unfortunately the calibration temperature does determine the fan speed. If you want to have a different fan speed than the cal map. You have to reset it manually at every startup.

    Pat
    Last edited by Antony Newman; 11-02-2020 at 09:05 AM.
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member Antony Newman's Avatar
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    Thanks Phil,

    It sounds like a Blimp is the established way of dealing with unwanted sound (and something I will definitely consider).

    I was hoping to develop a portable compact (metamaterial) labyrinth to absorb the monstro fan noise (with only marginal impact on air flow).

    What I had not expected was the majority of sound that Monstro fans create (at 20%) is conducted through the cameras body - and radiated as resonances.

    +) For those interested in an example of a metal material 'plug' (at 00:14) :


    +) KEF are branching in to HF metamaterial sound absorbers :
    KEF

    +) And here is a look at (Fusion 360) model under the bitumen noise isolation material that I was testing with:
    09 - Chimney

    +) Airflow Turbulence Modelling : You can do a 1000 hr simulation of Fusion 360 model at 'Sim Scale' (and there is a free Fusion 360 extension).

    AJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Depends largely on the conditions I'm in, but 43C is about what it is at all times. <snip>
    In terms of Sensor Calibration, I always run Manual on Monstro <snip>
    RED does crazy things now including utilizing heaters on the sensor <snip>

    As for camera operation sound, I think we've been blimping cameras for about 100 years now. <snip>
    More or less my chute is thicker neoprene curved out the rear of the body with a capping filter to not obstruct airflow, but rather diffuse sound.
    Just building that out of the top fan area provided a significant drop in dB and worked well.
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