Thread: RED's militaristic branding and marketing.

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  1. #121  
    Senior Member AndreasOberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    Cloth masks do little to prevent the spread of the aerosol virus, as the virus is too small. Cloth masks help a little bit because they stop actual spittle and such and they shorten the distance your breath (and therefore the aerosol virus) travels but overall doesn't really protect the wearer or others particularly well.

    Half my family are firefighter/paramedics and the other half are medical workers and I can tell you this virus/pandemic sucks (daughter's 34 yo boyfriend has been hospitalized since Christmas and on ventilator for almost 2 weeks with not great chance of survival and certainly heavily damaged lungs and organs if survives)
    .
    Good post Michael, sad to hear about the sick young man, hope he recovers. I have suffered to some degree, the last 8 years, with something that looks like Post Viral Syndrome and it is not pleasant when it strikes. Many seem to get similar symptoms with long Covid and it is worrisome since it can last for such a long time.

    In my family we use N99 masks, but we do not spend any time around people, we use them when food is delivered or if out walking and people get to close. I wish more would do the same. It is so easy and you can reuse the masks for a long time as long as you have them in a safe place.

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  2. #122  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    And now face masks with skulls on them? This is definitely not a highlight for RED.
    I guess you have to laugh, I mean really...?!

    https://www.red.com/red-face-masks-p...ntity=1?size=1
    Oh, dear. More things to be offended by. I didn't even know these existed until you pointed them out. It's not worth caring about.
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  3. #123  
    Senior Member William Long's Avatar
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    Karim, I don't think it is about being offended but it can be about caring. And perhaps context.

    Personally, I don't like the skulls - I think they are really bad taste - but I've had young people come up and think they were really cool. That's fun. Conversely, filming in old peoples homes and in hospitals with the terminally ill - not so cool. That's why I have them covered up.

    Perhaps it is worth caring about?
     

  4. #124  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    Karim, I don't think it is about being offended but it can be about caring. And perhaps context.

    Personally, I don't like the skulls - I think they are really bad taste - but I've had young people come up and think they were really cool. That's fun. Conversely, filming in old peoples homes and in hospitals with the terminally ill - not so cool. That's why I have them covered up.

    Perhaps it is worth caring about?
    Exactly. I think there's a common thing nowadays that whenever something is criticized, the counter-argument is that people are offended. That whole type of counter-argument is a fallacy and has no place in critical debate. It's equivalent of saying that people who criticize something "can't handle the truth", while what they are actually doing is arguing the truth-value of something and criticizes it.

    Arguing that people who question a status quo are "offended" is just a blanket covering the fact that there are no better arguments coming from the person uttering it. If anything, it's the person who defends against the criticism who's the offended one, since they can't justify past their own subjective world view and need to "weaken" the ones criticizing. This is like pure "trumpism" actually, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this type of debate behavior has taken root over the past years. The way that the discussion climate has changed through "trumpism" clearly shows how just attacking the character rather than the argument, and trying to weaken an opponent through positioning them as "weak" and "offended" rather than contemplating the argument proposed and countering that.

    There are clear benefits to use logos and equipment names that are more neutral for something that makes its way into a large variety of places and situations. Skulls might be ok for military families, or such places where it's considered irrelevant, but as William points out, an elderly home and hospitals for the terminally ill, yeah, that can become rather fucked up. And there are far more examples, like if you're filming in a culture where skulls have a very negative meaning.

    Skulls is not in any way a neutral imagery, so why keep using it? Calling people "offended" by the style and naming is the weakest form of an intellectual answer to this question, it's a fallacy and attack on character that just ignores the actual argument.
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  5. #125  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Long View Post
    Personally, I don't like the skulls - I think they are really bad taste - but I've had young people come up and think they were really cool. That's fun. Conversely, filming in old peoples homes and in hospitals with the terminally ill - not so cool. That's why I have them covered up.
    You've already solved the problem. If you think that something is inappropriate, then you can use your discretion. Would you wear a Hawaiian shirt with images of bikini girls to a church service? No. But there's nothing wrong with the shirt per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Calling people "offended" by the style and naming is the weakest form of an intellectual answer to this question, it's a fallacy and attack on character that just ignores the actual argument.
    Saying that you find something offensive is not an argument.
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  6. #126  
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    Seems like Red is moving away from these naming conventions and I wholeheartedly support that.

    Names do matter. The imagery does matter. If they didn’t matter then those that say there’s nothing wrong with the name shouldn’t have a problem with it changing either.

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  7. #127  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    If they didn’t matter then those that say there’s nothing wrong with the name shouldn’t have a problem with it changing either.

    JB
    You're right, I don't have a problem with what Red does with regards to naming conventions. So much so that I don't think I've ever brought it up as a matter of concern. They are organically moving in a different direction, and it's fine by me. Just note, though, that I, and people like me, are not telling people to "fuck off" for having different viewpoints on this issue.

    I do see a lot of pointless grievances, but ultimately it's Red's decision. I hope they make it because they believe it, instead of being afraid of upsetting someone.

    Remember that De Tomaso's Pantera could be interpreted as referring to the mythical rapist of the Virgin Mary. Of course it wasn't named after him - I am well aware of that. But I have no doubt that some people who believe themselves to be civil rights reformers would happily have it changed if they could. These sorts of people just love controlling others.
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  8. #128  
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    I personally think the choice of names and the design language of Red , first and foremost, means something to the team. This is important. How they feel about it, how it engages them, builds their mindset and attitude for development, for how to push the company forward.

    Yes, branding is important. Every other manufacturer is going for vanilla, generic names for their products. This takes out any potential concern someone might be offended or put off by the branding or naming. But it also makes things dull. I think Red’s attitude, Reds own disruptive and forward pushing mindset- which we can see by its core members and founders- is everything but dull or conformist. That is, in a way, what we see in their own videos, branding, etc.

    I’m a marketing man myself and I have to concern with every single issue people are discussing here. Yet , I do think the benefits for Red to keep doing their own thing far surpasses changing themselves to just one more generic cinema gear company, branding wise.
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  9. #129  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    I could care less about the skulls - the concerning part is people are buying and using these type of masks routinely. The original idea of not wearing masks in the early days and then cloth masks was that there were not enough n95 masks available even for the front line first responders and medical people to protect themselves and they didn't want the average Joe buying up the small supply.

    With the massive levels of infection around the country (and particularly the LA area) people should be using n95 level masks whenever possible.

    Cloth masks do little to prevent the spread of the aerosol virus, as the virus is too small. Cloth masks help a little bit because they stop actual spittle and such and they shorten the distance your breath (and therefore the aerosol virus) travels but overall doesn't really protect the wearer or others particularly well.

    Half my family are firefighter/paramedics and the other half are medical workers and I can tell you this virus/pandemic sucks (daughter's 34 yo boyfriend has been hospitalized since Christmas and on ventilator for almost 2 weeks with not great chance of survival and certainly heavily damaged lungs and organs if survives)

    It's not just the 400,000 deaths, it's the several million survivors that will have serious health issues the rest of their lives.

    my suggestion is buy the $35 skull mask and hang it next to your RED hat as a cute souvenir and then buy some N95s to actually use.

    PSA over.
    Very sorry to hear about your daughter's boyfriend especially given his age. This Covid situation is not fun for anyone particularly when it hits close to home (if not personally).

    I'm not a doctor but these guys are.



    They site many studies published in various peer reviewed journals that show how Vitamin D (or lack there of) has a major influence on one's ability to get infected and manage the virus if they are infected.

    The studies discussed in the video are linked in the description of the Youtube page.

    I have no intention of derailing this thread but will take that risk considering the importance of the information.
    Regarding this pandemic, anything is better than the fear, uncertainty, and doubt we're generally left with.

    Hope this is helpful to someone.

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  10. #130  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    Remember that De Tomaso's Pantera could be interpreted as referring to the mythical rapist of the Virgin Mary. Of course it wasn't named after him - I am well aware of that.
    I agree with you that it's not nice to tell people to "fuck off" just because you disagree with them. And just so you know where I'm coming from, I've read many of your other posts and respect and appreciate your contributions, especially as you clearly stay up on cutting edge photography tech and bring that knowledge to this forum.

    However, I'm not sure that I'd agree that this is a good comparison. If we're reasonable people trying to have a good faith discussion, then the quality of observations does matter. I don't know anything about the De Tomaso Pantera car, so please correct me if there's context I'm missing (e.g. there's a picture of the Virgin Mary painted on the hood of each one). But I'm sure that you're right that, as silly as it is, we could find someone on the forum at BiblicalMuscleCars.com who expresses outrage at the perceived connection. Being reasonable people, we'd hear the claim, judge that it's a bit thin, and move on. We might think the OP ill-informed-- or we might think they were trolling.
    As for Red's imagery, I don't think a reasonable person would need a military historian to recognize the link between its naming and logo conventions and a certain kind of military imagery. Let's be more specific: this isn't military imagery of rank or honor, nor does it emulate actual military naming conventions. Rather, the imagery is drawn from the world of comic-book "Punisher"-type stuff, right? It's perhaps only para-military, really. Is that not a fair assessment? Or would anyone in good faith argue that it's equally likely that Red's skull design is meant to evoke Renaissance anatomy drawings, and that the word "arsenal" was merely chosen from a thesaurus entry for "collection"?

    So the argument being made here isn't that we live in a crazy world, and that anyone could be in theory be offended by anything (which I take to be the point of the car example), so we should only name things with random strings of numbers so as to offend no one. (And that we live in fear of someone being offended upon pointing out that one of those number combinations is Mussolini's birthday.) The issue raised is about specific imagery with a specific-- and I think widely understood-- history, and specific violent anti-hero connotations, right along with connotations of being cool and effective and fast and skilled. You don't have to be anti-gun or anti-military, or even "politically correct," to find that the associations with some of these symbols and names get in the way of what we're trying to do on film sets-- even if we're happily shooting a series about an elite group of soldiers!

    I don't think there's anything to be afraid of in this conversation-- it's not about "censoring" Red, nor insisting that they save the whales. Rather, I'm here as a customer who wants to recognize that the past approach has gotten in the way, express approval of Red's more recent direction, and urge them to continue. It's fine for people to disagree with that assessment, but let's be clear on what we're talking about.
     

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