Shooting Dance - questions, questions, questions.

[kupchenpo]

I'm doing a shoot next month with Reds for the fist time of a traditional Tibetan dance with six dancers. This will be the 6th video shoot of this dance group I've been in charge of, done on a variety of cameras with a variety of lighting arrangements. None of which I've been completely happy with. We've shot on Canon XH A1's at 30p and 60i, on HVX200's at 30p, and on Varicams at 24p and 30p. The one time we went 24p on the Varicam I wasn't happy with the jerkiness in movement in some of the faster moving sections of the dance, but in terms of workflow and distibution for both HD and SD versions this seems to be the easiest to work with. Also I've never noticed this problem in High Action scenes in Hollywood movies which were obviously shot at 24p because they were shot on film. Anyone shot high action dance or sports @ 24p? Results? Will it be different on the red for any reason? Really I'm looking for any and all suggestions for settings to use on the REDs for my next shoot and explanations of why they may yield certain more desirable results. And any and all commentary and suggestions on lighting possibilities, lens selection, and anything else anyone can think of, specifically as it would relate to the RED as opposed to what I've shot with before.

Last shoot:

Camera: 4 HVX200's
Settings: 1/120, f4.6, 30p
lighting: 2 5k tungsten through paper, 2 2k fills, 2 1k side (as close as we could get to back lights without spoiling side angle shots)
Location: Large ballroom, controlled lighting (no natural light)
circumstances: Dance performed for video, but Lama in charge wanted dances to be performed from beginning to end without interruption every time, so it was almost like shooting an event except we had environmental control and were able to do everything twice.
Result: The best of the shoots I've done yet. Picture quality, especially on my wide shot was not great @ 720p and when we knocked it down to DVD res it was downright bad. Tighter shots were much better of course, but it's really a group dance and needs to be mostly wide shots. Color was very yellow, which I played with in post, but not without the other undesired results. I know post options are great, but I want to get things as close to perfect as possible on shoot and only adjust very slightly or not at all in post.

The RED shoot will be at the same location and same circumstances. My overall budget for the production is 7k. It looks like it'll cost me 3k to get 3 reds from different red owners in the LA area for the day with full packages (no insurance, no rental houses), 1k for location and that leaves 3k lighting, lenses, extra equip, etc. I will be DP and one of the camera ops, the two other camera men are close friends working for free. I have all the sound necessary. Any and all suggestions on any aspect of the production will be very much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[pango]

David Lachapelle's "Rize" suffers quite a bit from 24p. Krump dance is so fast that, except for a view slow motion scenes, there seems to be a real interference problem with 24p which make movements look somewhat unnatural.

[kupchenpo]

Thanks Pango, I'll check that out to get a better idea of what you're talking about. I'm assuming it's something like what I experienced with my Varicam shoot. Any suggestions about films with dance that are done well?

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Any suggestions about films with dance that are done well?

I have only done humble dance recital shoots but do them at 30P/60i as I feel the high motion would benefit from as a high a frame rate as possible. (When I get my RED, I definitely plan to experiment with 60P and 120P frame rates so that I have great slo-mo capability at any point in the performance.) That said, I've never shot dance at 24P as I only have one cam that can do that rate. So file this preference for 30P as an opinion/intuition not backed up by real testing.

Though not really dance, the acrobatics in Cirque de Soleil is close enough in character and the numbers are highly theatrical. The video productions of their performances (like every other aspect of their productions) are amazing. They would be an excellent visual resource for anyone filming dance.

One video I remember in particular was "Allegria" (spelling?). IIRC, that one was filmed in progressive frame with some obviously faster than 30P frame rates at some points for terrific speed-morphing/slo mo in the playback.

[jbeale]

FWIW - I've been shooting dance in 60i for about 10 years now. I tried one dance show at 30p using a DVX100 and I didn't care for it; the motion was not comfortable to watch. I know some people believe 24p should be all things to all people, but it's not for me. Maybe it's just about what you're used to.