I doubt Scarlet is a DSLR killer

[Julio Quintana]

Hey guys. I was just rereading Jim's earlier post about DSMC being a DSLR killer, and I have a few thoughts on the subject:

It seems to me that to get a still camera that can compete with a high end Nikon or Canon, you have to buy the S35 Scarlet at least. At $7000, this is more than double the cost of the Nikon D700. And unlike the Nikon which only needs a lens to start shooting, the Scarlet SLR will require at least an LCD or EVF, a media recording module, the DSLR handles with the batteries in it, etc. So now we're looking at somewhere in the realm of $10,000 MINIMUM to take stills with this system, while I can go pick up a Nikon D90 at Best Buy today for $1000.

"But the Scarlet records badass video!". I hear you. And to all of us here on REDUSER, that's a critical difference. But let's face it, everybody here is excited about a mind-blowing video camera at a cheap price, with the bonus that it also shoots great stills. But the average still photographer has ZERO use for 5K video, and I doubt they would be willing to pay ten times more to have that capability. Not to mention the computer investment they would have to make just to mess around with the footage. Even seasoned professionals have had a learning curve to mess with Red footage. What makes you think the guy who takes portraits in the mall would want to deal with that? It's like telling me that for $10,000 more I can upgrade my Honda Civic to a 700 horsepower engine that gets 3 miles/gallon. Cool, but no thanks.

So in conclusion, SCARLET/EPIC is an incredible achievement and I plan on picking one up as soon as possible, but I don't think it is as revolutionary for the still market as the RED ONE was to the video world. The RED ONE offered videographers a camera with more/better features for much less money. The DSMC offers still photographers a camera with more features for much MORE money. I predict the release of Scarlet next year will completely eliminate future purchases of the HVX200, the Sony EX1, the Varicam, and let's be honest, the RED ONE.

[Tom Lowe]

Is it a DSLR killer? No.

Maybe the larger format cams might compete with still cameras. I dunno.

[Julio Quintana]

Yeah, I'm not sure either. If we compare the Epics to DSLR's now we're talking a LOT more money and ridiculously unnecessary video resolution.

[Lee Jay]

Yep. It seems like it would be a shame to buy a Scarlet or Epic and never once see video moving through what must be massive DSPs and FPGAs in the brains. As for the "spray and pray" approach of shooting stills by shooting video and picking frames, well, that's a lot of data to store and process, and are these cameras even capable of doing that with the frames losslessly-compressed like the raw modes are on dSLRs? Will there be an sraw-style mode for either stills or video, especially on the cams with WAY too many pixels?

[Carlos Echenique]

The real kicker here lies in the quality of the images. I use a D300 for some landscape work (because that is what I have at the moment) and to get some really good images sometimes requires pulling HDR tricks out of the hat to compensate for the relatively limited dynamic range of the sensor. The Scarlet/Epic specs (variable as they are according to Jim) calls for 13+ steps of dynamic range@16-bits/channel. That by itself exceeds the DR of Medium Format Digital backs which average 12 stops of DR with 16-bits/channel. Add to that the low frame rates of of DMF (usually measured in seconds per shot, not the other way around) and the DSMC is starting to look pretty attractive.

At PhotoPlus 2008, Mamiya made a big deal about a new system bundle priced at $14,999 which included a Mamiya 645AFD-III, Sekor 80mm 2.8D lens and a Leaf Aptus-II 6 28Mpx digital back. Hasselblad announced that it's H3D-II 31 starter kit (H3D-II camera body + 80mm HC f/2.8 lens + Hasselblad H-31 31Mpx back) would be permanently lowered to $17,995.

The Sony α900 24Mpx DSLR starts at $3000 and the Zeiss lenses for it start around $800 and go up. Plus, it can only shoot 5 fps max with the battery grip. The Scarlet 35FF can hit 30fps.

[Julio Quintana]

Carlos, I see your point, but the D300 is still a $1700 camera, available today, not a year from now. So are you saying that Scarlet could be a replacement to DSLR's in the $10,000-$15,000 range?

[Carlos Echenique]

Carlos, I see your point, but the D300 is still a $1700 camera, available today, not a year from now. So are you saying that Scarlet could be a replacement to DSLR's in the $10,000-$15,000 range?

Yes, exactly that. The companies who need to watch out are Mamiya, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, and Leica (with their recently announced S2 MF system). RED is going to trump the hell out of them. Another factor is the rumored Medium Format system from Nikon, but this may only turn out to be a 24Mpx version of the D3/D700.

One of my many questions for RED is in regards to the actual operation of the DSMC. Is this going to be a motion picture camera with really amazing stills or will this camera have to two discrete modes: still image and motion picture capture? Although the basic technology of the two cameras types is the same, image capture optimizations vary greatly from one to the other.

[Julio Quintana]

Good points.

[Tom Lowe]

I would take all DR specs with a grain of salt.

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Mamiya, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, and Leica

Wait..... this are all MF cameras! So should not be compared with SCARLETT but with the EPIC MF and at its pricepoint... maybe its not a killer... its not even intimidating.

SCARLETT FF35 can be compared with NIKON or CANON cameras

RED SCARLET and EPIC are Movie cameras that eventually can take single frame images.