Scratching my head

[Finner]

Hi All

So this is quite late after the 13th announcement but my first chance to post as I have been very busy. Please note because I have been so busy I am sure I have missed some threads and posts that may have asked and answered some of my thoughts/questions.

First off higher res then 4k. I really do not see anything but problems with higher res cameras then 4K. 5K maybe but 9K?????? Most post solutions are not anywhere close to handling the 4K data, not to mention that anything above 4K really becomes a bit of a waste and not much of an advantage. I understand the desire to make a sensor large enough to cover S35 frames but anything larger????? Dynamic Range and frame rates is much more important then higher res. Although creating higher res sensors are a lot easier to achieve then higher DR or higher frame rates. I pretty much only see higher res causing bigger post issues due to massive file data.

New red accesories for the new camera line up. I got all Element Technica accessories for my red because they were the best option and they adapted the red to work with ARRI equipment. ARRI is the cine standard for a reason, simply it is really F'n good. I just hope support gear is built to allow these cameras to work with ARRI equipment right off the bat.

New lens mounts seem a little strange as well. There are many amazing PL lenses and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Personally for me more information and updates/tests on red primes and information on when some post solutions will be comming forward would be far more exciting.

I am impressed with the new camera line up don't get me wrong. It is just I see much more value in increased Dynamic Range, faster frame rates, lenses and a post process that does not cause producers to run for the hills.

Feel free to enlighten me if I am way off.

cheers
Daren

[Jason Ing]

New red accesories for the new camera line up. I got all Element Technica accessories for my red because they were the best option and they adapted the red to work with ARRI equipment. ARRI is the cine standard for a reason, simply it is really F'n good. I just hope support gear is built to allow these cameras to work with ARRI equipment right off the bat.

Someone just asked the ET question and jim answered in the affirmative. :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...639#post328639

[Martin Weiss]

Also, no one is forcing you to buy those cameras that are expected for 2009/10...

nVida has just come out with a personal supercomputer with close to 1000 cores - for under 10k usd. By the time the new REDs hit the Market, there might be some very interesting post solutions out there.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Well Finner is somewhat right - DR and color is more important then resolution.

Also Jason I looked through the thread but could only see that Jim is mentioning that accessories will work with it (except for top handle), but he doesn't mention third party accessories?

[Bruce Allen]

Also, no one is forcing you to buy those cameras that are expected for 2009/10...

nVida has just come out with a personal supercomputer with close to 1000 cores - for under 10k usd. By the time the new REDs hit the Market, there might be some very interesting post solutions out there.

You mean, like play a RED Quicktime?

Chances of Apple embracing the nVidia personal supercomputer are low. And since Apple's chances are low, so are RED's. Doesn't make sense but there you have it.

So as a result you have a 0% chance that the RED SDK will take advantage of that workstation.

Since RED blocks people from reading .R3D files directly, what will happen is that the 992 graphics cores will sit idle while the 8 cpu cores chug slowly through that 9K file doing the secret SDK decode.

Ah for the good old days of SGI being the media go-to company instead of Apple. They'd be all over that stuff...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Evin Grant]

Dynamic Range and frame rates is much more important then higher res. Although creating higher res sensors are a lot easier to achieve then higher DR or higher frame rates. I pretty much only see higher res causing bigger post issues due to massive file data.

Daren,
I think this is why the 6K FF Epic is the most interesting product and the one I and many other cine style shooters are excited about. When using the S35 window you are essentially shooting a 4-5K image with all the DR and sensitivity benefits of the newer sensor and higher framerates. This will be the default shooting for most of us but if ana anamorphic job comes our way we can window to 4:3 and Bam! or for VFX plates throw on a Nikon, Canon or Red mount lens and have another level of oversampling. To tell the truth if my finances and Red's timeline allow I'd get the 645, it can do everything the 6K can and since I've started this dome photography thing I'm starting to see many more venues using UHD installations and such. So I really don't think the 6K and 9K sensors will be common for filmmaking but there are still a lot of uses for them. Mostly ones we don't even know exist yet.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What Evin said... The EPIC FF35 is where I'm headed for all those reasons. Except the dome photography, I haven't done any of that yet...

I think the 645 is going to be very popular, more than a lot of people may realize. Just price out the cost of shooting 65mm film and it becomes very clear. Factor in the 60% boost we should see in CPU power by the time that thing ships and the advancements we should most likely see in REDCODE workflow. Same with the 617 -- I'm seriously interested in buying that one. Some of the advertising / signage / large display venue work could pay for that camera on the first job or two. Although, I don't know what to think about lenses on that camera just yet.

[Andrew Walker]

This is the amazing thing about Epic. You can get the 6K or 9K model but that doesn't mean you have to shoot at that resolution all the time. It would be nice to have it for VFX plates and anamorphic jobs as Evin has already pointed out. The thing I'm most excited about if the higher frame rates at higher resolutions. Plus depending on how the sensor behaves with long exposures I might be using Epic for all my future timelapse footage, which would be nice at 9K.

[Antoine Baumann]

Personnaly I can imagine buying an Epic S35 (mostly, but not only, to stick to 35mm cine lenses), but would love a 4/3 sensor. Make different aspectio ratio recordable as well as low res (for faster frame rate).
Give it a "monstro" sensor to get the 16 bit, and crank the frame rates as much as possible. 5K, yeah if it is better than 4K (with bigger photosensor).
Be sure the "shutter" is faster than mecanic shutter, less possible compression and give the possibility to third party to develop their own debayer.

I think red.com might have enough camera (epic or scarlet) to fit everybody demands...

tchuss,
antoine.

[Bruce Allen]

Speaking as a VFX guy I'd happily say we want high speed, an open file format and secondary color correction in RedCine far more than 9K. Oh and if /i was up and running as was promised years ago it'd be great.

We're happy with clean 2K. For example, my friend was a lead compositor for Pirates of the Caribbean 3. He did most of everything at 2K.

Subsequently, he did some Red jobs and was very unimpressed by the noise levels. He also didn't like the color tone, didn't like the milky blacks - and the fact he couldn't read the .R3d files directly.

Other vfx people I've talked to really hate the fact that most of the time they have to correct the reds that come out of Redcine - it goes pink / brown way too easily. If Redcine had a secondary color corrector, then the workflow could be much cleaner.

All of these things are far more desirable to high-end vfx people than 9K.

The best thing for VFX about the new cameras is:
- lower compression
- less noise & better DR
- not having to go to 2K (which is awfully nosiy on the Red) for high speed
- (lower on the list) the potential for clean downsampled 4K from 5K

Plus depending on how the sensor behaves with long exposures I might be using Epic for all my future timelapse footage, which would be nice at 9K.

Why do you want to use a $$$$$ camera to shoot timelapse? What is wrong with a DSLR? Even a compact camera is competitive. I have a $400 Canon A650 I have programmed to take HDR stacks. Footage from it looks better than the rather out-of-focus, compressed and bad timelapses breathlessly posted on Reduser.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com