Another fear...

[Peter McCully]

I honestly never imagined myself purchasing a Scarlet aside from the original $3000 version. But with the announcements in (not final announcements but they well may be) I see myself purchasing a Scarlet FF35, then diving in for the big 645 later. It's the smartest choice and it leaves me with multiple brains to which I can hot swap modules when my 645 does come in.

Again, the Epic-X & S35 models are (As far as I can see) bound for low sales and demand.

This is my current thinking also. Although no doubt things will change considerably over the coming year. I wonder if it is better to hold back the R1 trade in for when the Monstros do come out. So, getting the Scarlet to initially buy in to the system, get the peripherals and be making use of them from the start then having the serial number priority with the R1 when Epic is ready.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Here's how it breaks down for me Michael....

For starters, it's already been established that everyone wants Monstro. The added 2 stops of DR are the most wanted feature to many including myself.

The lowest cost model that has this FF35 Monstro sensor is the Scarlet FF35. The cost of the FF35 Scarlet is $10K plus let's say for the sake of safety that all the necessary modules will cost an additional $5K. $15K total.

So for $15K total I've got a Scarlet FF35 with a Monstro sensor, I've got all the necessary modules which can later be used on my 645 (or FF35 Epic pacakge for the sake of others). So all I would then need to do at a later date is trade in my R1 and purchase the 645 brain.

Now I've got my 645 brain and all the necessary modules to run it. PLUS, I've got a Scarlet FF35 brain just in case a production has a small budget and can't afford the features found on my 645. So, I've effectively become a one-stop shop for rentals all the way down to the film school budgets, all the way up to the large budget shows.

Now to hit on your points.....

1) As mentioned before the timing is quoted as about six months earlier and given the new technology of monstro it is more likely to be delayed.

I'd rather invest smartly and wait the 6 months rather than spend money for the sake of being "ahead of the pack".

2) Don't forget the extra cost of CF module, Battery Module, I/O Module.

I'll have all the modules necessary for either of my brains.

3) Redcode 250 versus 100. We don't know what this means exactly, but one of the supposed advantages of Arri and others is their true RAW recording. Presumably this gets us much closer.

I've read elsewhere that these numbers don't necessarily relate to the bit rate so that is yet to be found as an advantage.

4) Frame rates: 125 vs 30 is a pretty big jump.

Again, productions can always rent an Epic brain if high speed is needed.

5) Ramping: not available on scarlet S35 or FF35 and this seems like an important feature on highend commercials and maybe a potentially overused but still desirable option for regular and indie movies.

Ramping is a cool feature, but it is also easily accomplished by shooting at your target slowest frame rate and ramping in post.

7) Perceived market value. ~12K gets you a ~12K scarlet with modules. 10.5K plus your (somewhat obsolete. sorry...) RED gets you a $30,000+ Epic (with included accessories) and if those prices hold at all or close, then your asset value is much better.

We're talking about spending (And here's my blind guesstimate again) an additional $5K on modules. That's a price well worth paying IMO.

[Steven Parker]

The thing I'm trying to figure out is - what is Red going to do with those R1 bodies that get traded in?

There must be a plan for them....:detective2:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Museum pieces?

[Alexander Nikishin]

One main point that I forgot to add Michael was that if I did trade in my R1 for the Epic-X, I'd then lose my $17.5K trade in value and would have to then re-sell my Epic-X in order to recoup enough money for the 645 (Or in most people's case the Epic FF35).

The re-sale value is a very loose number as of now but I'd say it will sell back for around $20K. That means that I have to first off worry about selling it to someone, second off I now have to purchase the 645 for $43K, leaving me spending $23K for my 645, now I have to hop back in line in order to secure a Scarlet FF35 to fill the low end of my rentals.

With that being said, it seems much smarter to just start off with the low-end of my brains (The S-FF35) and add on the 645 later and not even have to worry about re-sales.

[Poi Boy]

Lots of good stuff to think about on this thread. I think it is important to note that we have not seen any images from a mysterium x sensor yet. If it turns out to be an amazing sensor, that would have a big effect on my decision.
Aloha
-A

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

But surely there will be an upgrade path from there, I mean, would RED receive our old Epics for the new ODYSSEY with the Monstro-x-treme? :)

[nick allsop]

pro glass is pl mount. s35 is a standard in cinema ff35 is not. ff35 glass is stills glass and is not going to be ideal. yes i want the best sensor but i want it to fit current pro sizes. i'm hoping the epic x select would allow an upgrade to a monstro s35 size sensor when one is designed instead of swapping the whole brain, i'm just guessing what the "SELECT" means.
i'm worried that red might be spending to much time working on unproven formats instead of just being ahead of every body else with current ones.
we are still waiting for the pl mount red primes, red are now going to make 8 more cameras and loads of different lenses with different lens mounts. it will all get very confusing.

[Jaime Vallés]

Again, the Epic-X & S35 models are (As far as I can see) bound for low sales and demand.

It's anyone's guess, but I actually think the opposite will happen. The S35 Scarlet is scheduled to come out first, Summer '09, followed closely by the S35 Epic X & 2/3"-i Scarlet. I feel that people are going to go nuts when those come out, and will purchase them instantly. S35, 5K, 72fps bursts... That's really all you need for a major motion picture, except for the 13 stops of DR. But Monstro FF sensors are going to take a while (currently scheduled for 1/2 year after S35 Scarlet & Epics ship.)

The delay between Monstro cameras and Mysterium X cameras will determine how well the S35 models sell.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Brook do you think Jim should build his cameras based how they affect one another in the cinema rental market or based on what is possible and how much they cost to design and build? The former is essentially what every cinema camera manufacturer has been doing for 40 years.

If I was a genius entrepreneur trying to find a market for my amazing low cost camera body, I'd be looking at the potential millions of still photographers versus thousands of cinematographers. I'd know that the still photographers would not pay $30K for my camera but would need access to my best sensor technology. I'd be eager to get those potential customers invested in my product line.

I think Ian said it very well...I was also thinking this way...

So....
people wanted high resolution, high framerate, low compression camera.
This and that features. Jim said okay...but it would cost you. People said okay, make us one.
Jim did. Enters Epic.

It is my understanding that Scarlet was a logical path from RED. Better sensor, smaller size, lighter, financially more reachable. Even greater tool for even more artists. That sounds like RED philosophy.

I'm guessing that he added Epic just because people asked for it and he realized he could. He said framerates are expensive.


Wanting RED to keep high pricing for the technology it can offer for lower price is wanting RED to be Sony, IMO.


If there is a fear of investing in Epic because of Scarlet's features...the answer is pretty easy.
Buy Scarlet.

I'm sure Jim won't have sleepless nights over this.
I don't think he started making cams to make rental houses happy.