Data workflow for high-end online (broadcast/TV)?

[GlennChan]

I'm curious:
How will the data workflow work for high-end online systems? i.e. Discreet FFI (SGI and Linux), Quantel iQ, Nitris DS, etc.

Presumably...
A- Finish offline edit. Output EDL, cutting copy.

B- Bring EDL into Redcine. Redcine copies section of Redcode media onto an external drive (i.e. RAIDed FW800 so the transfer goes faster).

C- Drive is couriered to online facility. This is unless the offline editor is in the same building as the online, which does happen.

D- An online assistant takes the footage and dumps it into a computer with Redcine.

E- Redcine converts media into a file format that the online system will accept (still TIFF sequences?). Is it safe to assume that performance of these (possibly uncompressed 4:4:4) files will be the same as 4:2:2 Y'CbCr? And what about clipping of out-of-range values?
*It may be that the online system accepts some 4:2:2 Y'CbCr data format. I don't know.

F- These files are written directly onto a SAN or the online system's storage. Is it safe to assume that the network protocols and/or file systems are compatible, and that network speed is fast?

G- Things like field order and pixel aspect ratio are guessed correctly. If not, it is not a big PITA to manually change these settings.

H- If you had shot 24p (NDF) and you need to edit in 60i (NDF), and you go through this process, with that complicate things? Can the Red pull list work backwards from a 60i EDL and reference that to the 24p Red clips?

I- Can the online system take in an EDL, and conform that from data files? The online system needs to be able to read timecode from the data files.

J- If you need to change the reel names to no more than 5, 6, or 8 characters, can Redcine handle that?

K- Can Redcine warn you if you put a "B" on the end of the reel name? This would be to avoid conflicts with B-reel naming convention; I'm not sure if this is necessary.

My inquiring mind would like to know! (in the context of HD and SD production for broadcast)

Some previous discussion:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76081&page=2

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Based on what we have been told about RedCine: if you know what flavor you want to have go into your online pipeline then you should be able to set RedCine to output that particular format and everything after that should be your usual program. Issues of file naming, EDL management and the rest of the details may require a bit of testing but IMHO it shouldn't be a big PITA.

[Graeme Nattress]

Glenn, when these high end suites take still image files, it's usually dps, which is 10bit, 4:4:4 RGB. I don't know any that would deal with Y'CbCr at this point.

G - what field order? We're talking progressive here, surely. RED PAR =1.0;

H = datacentric, so why would you be dealing with pulldown and interlace and all that nonsense?

[GlennChan]

1- You mean DPX?

G- Field order: You might end up in a situation with interlaced output, if you need to add 3:2 pulldown.

As far as PAR, what if you need to output 720x486, or 720x576 ?

In any case, field order and PAR shouldn't be that big a deal if they are misinterpreted since you can grind through and tell your program to interpret everything correctly. It's just an annoyance when importing material... i.e. IME when you import footage into AE or Combustion, it may not always be interpreted correctly.

H- You may need your offline edit to be 60i if you are editing a documentary with a lot of 60i footage. 60i also has an advantage when it comes to overall workflow + packaging, since packaging almost always needs to be done in 60i (broadcasters require a 60i master). Yes interlacing is evil but... sometimes you have to deal with it.

[Graeme Nattress]

But all of the above are NLE issues. REDCINE makes the files you ask for. After that, the NLE has it's job to play.

Graeme

[GlennChan]

I think it's a Redcine issue.

If Redcine is to add pulldown (Stuart seemed to agree that it would be useful; the original plan was no), then when you send an EDL back to Redcine it should know to pull the right timecodes. It should convert from 59.97NDF timecodes to 23.98NDF, then pull, and then add pulldown to the output with (the same) 59.97NDF timecode.

[Rob Lohman]

Okay, I'm out of my area of expertise here, but I'm gonna try to say something useful:

1) The 59.97 framerates are only important for TV. So that's SD or HD. My suggestion: shoot at 720 or 1080 in either interlaced or progressive at 59.97 or 29.97. This should mix well with other clips you might pull in.

2) If you're working in 23.98 fps you're probably shooting a movie all on this camera, so you don't need to mix & match, so no problem there either.

So you only need pulldown for #2. This can be done when you export your 24 fps (or 23.98) timeline to whatever format needs pulldown. No need to do this during editing.

Am I missing something, or?

[GlennChan]

Rob, that would be a very sensible thing to do. I agree with you on #1.

However... some people will want to shoot 24p for the ""film look"". And because of the marketing by companies selling 24p cameras, a lot of people think about shooting in 24p. And in practice, some productions are shot 24p and 60i on the same camera. Because, supposedly, 24p=film look and 60i=documentary/news look. It's silly, but that's what happens. HDCAM decks can deal with adding pulldown (and TC issues), so this route is doable (although it's still a PITA, and complicated and confusing and slows you down when you set the system up wrong).

2- People might assume that it's ok to shoot 24p (i.e. with huge workflow hassles).

You even see that happen now, where people shoot 24pA and don't realize that the online system they will be using can't remove the advanced pulldown.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I am going to use the RED like it is a film camera running at 24p.
Feature films are shot and edited 24p. You don't see Spielberg
saying "This is going to TV lets shoot 29.97". There are established
workflows to go from film back to TV.

[donatello b]

"2) If you're working in 23.98 fps "

is it really 23.98 or are you just rounding up from 23.976 ...