About Genesis HD

[RivaiC]

So what is the advantages Red over Genesis HD ? First thing, comes to my mind is that price is definitely lower and cheaper on Red.

I read and understand that altho Genesis HD is 12mp as stated, but it said that it only utilizing 6mp. Anybody can clarify that this is true ?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/i...p/t-70681.html

To me Genesis HD is somewhere about Sony HDCAM SR, an improvements from F900R.

I don't mind to have different opinion about this or even some arguments. Specs wise is more or less the same. Should we put them on same level ?

[David Mullen ASC]

The Genesis is an HD camera, or 2K since it is easy to convert it to 2K for a D.I. post, as "Superman Returns" did. It records to HDCAM-SR, which is HD (1920 x 1080, progressive-scan). You could go out and see "I Pronounce You Chuck & Larry", "Superbad", "I Know Who Killed Me" if you want to see Genesis-shot material on the big screen.

It uses an RGB striped sensor rather than an RGB Bayer-filter sensor. This means that it can use a simpler algorithm to derive 1920 x 1080 per color channel. It also has a fast and a slow (ND filtered) row per color, to improve dynamic range, so that's about 2MP per row x 6 rows = 12MP sensor. But it cannot use complex algorithms to scale that up to 4K per channel as a Bayer-filtered sensor allows. You'd have to take the finished HD/2K files and uprez them to 4K.

Now whether 4K Bayer-filtered sensors (roughly 2K pixels for green and 1K each for green and blue if you used a "dumb" algorithm to convert to RGB) truly produces "4K RGB" is sort of moot, but it does beg the question whether a 3-sensor RGB 2K camera (which you could think of the Genesis as being, even though it is single-sensor) would produce decent results, resolution-wise, compared to de-Bayered 4K.

My impression is that the 4K image produced by the RED and Dalsa is clearly higher in resolution than the Genesis, not having done any tests to compare. But it is not as simplistic as "it's 4K vs. 1.9K" as a pro-RED person may argue it, nor as simplistic as "they both have 12MP sensors" as a pro-Genesis person would argue it.

[Poi Boy]

Great summation David; Red clearly has the edge on workflow,cost and size, I am excited that we will soon get a head to head as far as image quality is concerned.
Aloha
-A

[RivaiC]

Ok, that answer the most things i want to know.

Thanks David

[David Mullen ASC]

My rough impression has been that Genesis-to-35mm movies I've seen in the theaters, plus the ones I've seen digitally projected in 2K (just "Superman Returns") is that it looks a little soft in wide shots, but it also depends on whether I'm seeing a first generation print or a dupe off of an IP.

Whereas what I've seen of the RED and Dalsa look very sharp, but I've only seen them projected digitally. I'm looking forward to seeing footage from both projected in 35mm, maybe in comparison to 35mm material. And also seeing some comparisons of 35mm-to-4K projected digitally next to RED and Dalsa footage.

We're in that grey zone where half the filmmakers out there think that HD/2K is sharp enough for film-out and theatrical release, whereas the other half think that 4K should be the image quality standard to aim for. I'm always for higher standards rather than a "good enough" attitude, but then, I'm not the one writing the check...

[RivaiC]

Wether pictures is sharp or not in 35mm, it has always come down to your kine place, negative and film stock that you're using. That is saying eventho you are taking the same negative but print positive on 2 different places, at least in my experience it will be slightly different (also on sharpness difference). And we have to judge on master print not bulk prints. I don't normally judge what i see on cinema, because bulk prints is not the ultimate quality.

In my experience before, what we grade on monitor (calibrated monitor of course) is what is we got in silver screen. You can't tell the difference, the black level, color balance, highlight is all correct and it's sharp. Therefore, i believe if i shot 4K red, if i shot it correct and sharp, the kine will be the same as well, the kine people know what they're doing (the kine place i trust of course).

[Graeme Nattress]

Although Genesis has 12mp, it can only generate 1080p at most. And as much as people might like it to be different, 1080p is not 2k. Indeed, because HD has no overscan on pixel for pixel displays (they may scale and reduce quality if it's a fixed pixel 1080p display) editing and mastering 1080p for 1080p output is problematic. With SD, there's all kinds of nasties in the borders hidden by overscan. With HD you don't get that. Shoot true 2k and you've got your overscan built in there, with room to stabilize and crop to 1080p.

The Genesis is a stripe based sensor, which means you can't extract the full 12mp resolution from it, as it's a not a pattern conducive to doing so, unlike the Bayer pattern. Given it's designed for a 1080p output, I'd think the sensor would "bin" and not give external access to the 12mp anyway, but without inside knowledge from Panavision, that's just an educated guess.

There's two things that can effect the resolution output - opical low pass filtering to avoid aliassing, and image reconstruction from the raw. With a Bayer pattern you can usually get > 70% of the rated resolution and we're certainly beating that figure. The upper resolution being limited by the necessary optical low pass filtering to avoid aliassing. All pro cameras should have good filtering to avoid aliassing. I have no idea what the Genesis does for this, but if it has correct filtering, it cannot output it's full 1080p unless it aliasses badly, which would be objectionable. Given all that, I think you'll find the RED resolution significantly and obviously superior to that of any 2k or 1080p camera, be it single or tripple chip.

Graeme

[RivaiC]

I saw Sony Cinealta F900R causing Moire pattern (right word?) before. No idea about Genesis too, i think it does have good optical low pass filtering. It better be by looking at the price

[Graeme Nattress]

What price on Genesis - it's rental only. Moiré is the correct word for a pattern you get on fine detail on images not properly optically low pass filtered. One of the "nasty" things with aliasses is that they're algorithmically indistinguishable from detail, and hence to remove them, you must also remove real detail. Better not to have aliasses in the first place.

Having less than adequate optical low pass filtering is a low end camera "trick" to get more resolution. One of the nice things with 4k is you don't have to get into playing that kind of game.

[laguun]

We're in that grey zone where half the filmmakers out there think that HD/2K is sharp enough for film-out and theatrical release, whereas the other half think that 4K should be the image quality standard to aim for. I'm always for higher standards rather than a "good enough" attitude, but then, I'm not the one writing the check...

i agree, but we better start shooting 4k masters quick.
the dci rollout so far has ~4.000 screens outfitted with digital projection in the U.S.A.: more of 99% of them are 2K.

Among >60 projects, we only had three productions above 2k in the last 4 years.
The rest was all 2k/1080p.

One of the three was special venue, a cinerama style ballet, shot on 3 * hdcam side by side, another one was for a car exhibition (that was 8600*1080 animation) and only one was a fullfeature movie - and there only parts the VFX.